Do you like limits based on choices?

[Deleted]

After seeing a few polls here about peoples preferences on themepark or sandbox style games as well as the everlasting casual vs hardcore wars, it got me interested what others thing about this.

I'll keep it as short as possible as most don't bother reading through walls of texts, so here's the question..

Do you like it more that games(I mostly mean MMOs but other games apply too) present real choices, want some gimmicky choices or want everything available for you no matter what?

A few examples if its still unclear. I mean things like picking a faction that you cant leave and while picking it, you're permanently enemies with some other factions and can never change that. Also multiple option quests that you cant do again differently and are stuck with the rewards and consequences. In other words, permanent changes based on your choices.

[Shinzai]

If my choices don't mean anything in a game, then by extension, my character and I mean nothing in a game.

Just my opinion.

[Demox]

No, Ragnarok Online used to have permanent stat placement and skill choices and it sucked because of the amount of choices you could make for a class. Most notably blacksmith and alchemist crafters who had you level up 2 completely useless stats in order to have a good craft rate but made them unable to effectively kill anything. Back then it took hours to get a couple percent of exp and if you died you lost it, so that meant you have to make ANOTHER character and join a party to start leeching the crafter and hope they didn't die while you were leveling at half the speed.

That isn't hardcore, it's just stupid.

Another reason is that new players won't normally make the right choices when putting in stats or skills and can really screw them in the long run. I don't want to get halfway through the game and realize I have to restart it because I put a couple points in to the wrong stat.

And if you're wondering why I played that game it was because I did it before WoW. So when I was given forgiveness for being a newb in WoW I realized how retarded and a waste of time Ragnarok was.

[Deleted]

What choices? Stats? If so then permanent stat changes without the ability to replace them is stupid.
But dialogue choices like in witcher 2 / Mass effect 1/2/3 and many others? They're awesome.

[xskarma]

I prefer to at least have the choice to change. Make it costly, make me grind for hours to afford the change, but at least make it possible. I have a tendency to get attached to chars though, and giving them up to start over sucks in my opinion.

[Mekanikos]

Some people like to do everything on one character, myself included.

Having people limited to one path because of the (possibly uninformed) choices they make seems like a single player gimmick used to increase the re-playability of said game. In MMOs, the world is supposedly at your finger tips and there is so much to do, but not everyone has the time to level up another character to see what lay at the end of the other choices. By no means am I advocating a "give everyone all the things for free" mentality: if people want to change their choice, you can make them pay, be it in coin or some other form of payment (ie: time, but less than it would take to level another character).

The only permanency in life is death, so why hold a game to that same standard?

[Sj]

Some people like to do everything on one character, myself included.

Having people limited to one path because of the (possibly uninformed) choices they make seems like a single player gimmick used to increase the re-playability of said game. In MMOs, the world is supposedly at your finger tips and there is so much to do, but not everyone has the time to level up another character to see what lay at the end of the other choices. By no means am I advocating a "give everyone all the things for free" mentality: if people want to change their choice, you can make them pay, be it in coin or some other form of payment (ie: time, but less than it would take to level another character).

The only permanency in life is death, so why hold a game to that same standard?

I agree with this. I'd rather just have one character that I can do everything on. As far as choices, I like TSW's model of learning everything on one character but being limited on what you can use at any one time by weapon and number of equipped abilities.

[Deleted]

What choices? Stats? If so then permanent stat changes without the ability to replace them is stupid.
But dialogue choices like in witcher 2 / Mass effect 1/2/3 and many others? They're awesome.

Well, I meant things like

-You join a faction, you can never leave it and choosing that faction makes you permanently unfriendly with some other faction and cuts you off from their services and rewards

-multiple endings to quests. If you complete them in one way or kill off NPCs while doing them, you lose access to other paths

-You can never change your class or major faction or race or gender etc.(WoW has that too now, well, you can change your character to horde and alliance but that costs real money)

The option to re-specc is something different than that. It's too strict and doesnt even add any realism. I mean real people can get dumber and weaker too or stronger and smarter as well as learn new things and forget old ones. I just meant choices having consequences.

[Sj]

Well, I meant things like

-You join a faction, you can never leave it and choosing that faction makes you permanently unfriendly with some other faction and cuts you off from their services and rewards

Dislike.

-multiple endings to quests. If you complete them in one way or kill off NPCs while doing them, you lose access to other paths

Like, especially when I can make a somewhat educated decision.

-You can never change your class or major faction or race or gender etc.(WoW has that too now, well, you can change your character to horde and alliance but that costs real money)

I hate classes in games where you control one character instead of a party. Having to reroll just to experience or try a new style of playing sucks. Faction choices are interesting only if they're meaningful. WoW's factions feel forced and pointless to me now. Wrath and Cataclysm focused too much on banding together for the greater good for so long that MoP's attempts at faction conflict just feel "bleh" to me. I've no issues with being locked into a gender or race.

[Mekanikos]

Well, I meant things like

-You join a faction, you can never leave it and choosing that faction makes you permanently unfriendly with some other faction and cuts you off from their services and rewards

One of the joys of playing a political game is being able to change sides. Roleplay to the effect of being a mole or just coming to terms that you no longer agree with the actions condoned by a certain side gives more depth to a faction-based system. People change all the time; friends are made of enemies and enemies of friends.

-multiple endings to quests. If you complete them in one way or kill off NPCs while doing them, you lose access to other paths

I like the idea that the story follows the player's choices; instead of scripting the death of a NPC, allow the PC to save them (if it's within their power). Tactics Ogre played with this, but again, that's a single player game. How much dissonance is there when your friend has saved an NPC but you let them die? How do you tie those paths together?

-You can never change your class or major faction or race or gender etc.(WoW has that too now, well, you can change your character to horde and alliance but that costs real money)

The option to re-specc is something different than that. It's too strict and doesnt even add any realism. I mean real people can get dumber and weaker too or stronger and smarter as well as learn new things and forget old ones. I just meant choices having consequences.

People change jobs all the time; becoming skilled in another class, while not something to be taken lightly, is not an impossible feat. Gender-swapping has been a thing since DnD, possibly before. Magic and technology both allow for change.

[Halicia]

I see stuff about stats, etc... but when I read the question I think actual CHOICES like in Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate, or Fallout.

A lot of games will give you conversational choices, but when you choose the 'wrong' one, they simply say something like, "Oh, I don't think you actually mean that, do you?" until you choose the right one. Whats even worse, is when the choice you are given is completely different then the text that is presented, or that its impossible to decipher what the actual "choice" is.

Walking Dead by Telltale, did a good job of making the choices obvious and apparent, without allowing you to see longterm effects, although I think in large part it was simply because there werent any.

If you flood a game with too many unimportant choices too, it makes it harder to recognize the major choices until you've screwed them up.

[Deleted]

I see stuff about stats, etc... but when I read the question I think actual CHOICES like in Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate, or Fallout.
.

Exactly.. I mostly had Fallout: NV and to a lesser extent Mass Effect series in mind when making the poll. New Vegas is full of choices like that and I loved it. I even liked that it was possible there to let at least some of the big baddies live or join them (Like saving Benny or joining the Legion).

Being locked into stats and skills is something else. It feels a bit too strict and unrealistic but I would like it if was made a little more difficult than paying 10 coins and *poof* you turn from a wiry little weak mage to a super strong warrior. I think Elder Scrolls approach to it is the best. Let everyone train everything but in case of a MMO, just make mastering any skill take considerable effort (like leveling 1-cap in WoW for example). Then you CAN be a master of all but it would balance it out like in real life. It takes insane dedication to do that so most people just go for a few skills than interests them.

[Adam Jensen]

I don't like the idea of permanent stat changes. While I think, in order to make the choices have some consequence, you should have to pay something to reassign stats, I do not think they should be permanent. This is why I always supported dual speccing in WoW and the ability to change talents as needed, for a price.

As to quests? I enjoy it when quests branch off and your choices decide which branch you get to see. Gives you a reason to come back and makes your character actually feel like he's making an effect on the world.

I also liked that Dragon Age 2, as bad as the game was, gave you the ability to modify your character's appearance in the Black Emporium.

[Arkenaw]

Absolutely not, I refuse to play games where you can't or it's very difficult to reset skills/talents/points etc. I just don't enjoy stressing out over if I'm buying the right skills or investing in the right points and don't want to slave over a guide every single step of the way.

I also dislike factions in general, but it's usually not enough to deter me from playing.

[Varyk]

I love talent points, exploring, small bonuses like codexes in Dragon Age, upgrading equipment, and having a general idea where the story is going.

What lost it for me in Oblivion is all the unnecessary stuff like the random useless items like forks and plates that just took up space and wasted your time. I get that it's "in depth", but when it's so force fed like that it just comes off as unnecessary to me. The general lack of direction in the game was a downer also. Mass Effect 2 and 3 knocked it out of the park as far as game play, although I would like a bit more exploration, rather than just at main-hubs, but the game play is easily as good as it gets for me.

[Adam Jensen]

I love talent points, exploring, small bonuses like codexes in Dragon Age, upgrading equipment, and having a general idea where the story is going.

What lost it for me in Oblivion is all the unnecessary stuff like the random useless items like forks and plates that just took up space and wasted your time. I get that it's "in depth", but when it's so force fed like that it just comes off as unnecessary to me. The general lack of direction in the game was a downer also. Mass Effect 2 and 3 knocked it out of the park as far as game play, although I would like a bit more exploration, rather than just at main-hubs, but the game play is easily as good as it gets for me.

Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Deus Ex: HR all win in the "find random shit" department. I love reading eBooks and emails in Deus Ex and finding codex entries in DA/ME.

[Varyk]

Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Deus Ex: HR all win in the "find random shit" department. I love reading eBooks and emails in Deus Ex and finding codex entries in DA/ME.

And I've thoroughly enjoyed all of those games, I just didn't care for Oblivion (Skyrim was a lot better, but still had it's issues).

One game I've really gotten into is Kingdoms of Amalur:Reckoning. The combat is just awesome, and the bosses are super cool. And the weapon effects, and the talent tree/destinies.

[Aman08]

I hate games where I can be a demigod. Skyrim was like this. Maxing out every skill just seems ridiculous. Sure, it makes it so I don't have to remake a new character to experience other things, but that's part of the fun for me. Making a new class with new stats and trying things new ways is why I loved Morrowind.

[ddsad2212]

Yes I love it, makes it feel as though you are actually doing something in the game.

[barackopala]

Eden eternal is an example of a game that does the class system quite well, I loved that system, it ties you only to your character if you want to, you can be all the classes.