PvE vs PvP weapons in Arena

[Killerzmp]

Hi there, im currently contemplating purchasing the 470ilvl pvp 2h weapon, but i currently have the 2h from Sha in lfr upgraded twice so its 491ilvl + i have the 500 strength in it. i currently have 28.91% pvp power as im almost full malevolent geared except for helm/chest/pants/trinkets. I would appreciate any feedback anyone can give regarding my situation, Thanks.

[asb]

Even from a purely offensive perspective, I don't think you can get a PvE weapon that's superior to an arena weapon. The PvP power on it amounts to almost 18%, which 500 strength doesn't hold a candle to. On top of that, you're missing out on some resilience with a PvE weapon, which is a pretty valuable stat for a death knight.

[Deleted]

Do you want to bet on that ?
Heroic weapon with str gem upgraded twice vs elite upgraded ?
WDPS > * (for 2H frost pvp).
I've fight some elite malevolent geared DKs and i crit for so much higher than they do with their weapon, pvp power doesn't solve everything.
Resilience point is spot on though, can't deny it. But if you don't have access to it because u pvp casually or can't get to 2k2 then why not ?

[Veliane]

Do you want to bet on that?

A 2.2k DK would know that a PvP power from a double graded T2 weapon would make your Average weapon damage a little over 20k on players before resil, while Shinka would be 19562 and a little over 20.4k with the extra stats and socket.

The question is, are you willing to get a small boost at the cost of 830 resilience? Spongebob DKs think - Nope.


Any DK getting H Shinka at this point in the tier could achieve 2.2k too, so I don't see the difference, later on when things go the Dragon Soul way.. sure.

[Xevz]

Pretty sure the weapons are way better than heroic weapon upgraded due to the last patch that increased pvp power on them. Its THE reason why that change happened.

[Deleted]

Didn't even know they got upgraded, my bad >.<.
But, I'm still not convinced by it. Take my example, i got hc starshatter 2/2 and the T1 weapon 2/2. I'm willing to loose the resilience on the T1 for the upgraded dmg from the elegon weapon.
I won't ever reach 2k2 just because i don't pvp as much as before and shitty balanced as fuck in mop (that's another story) ; i'm willing to guess i'm not the only one with this kind of weapon availability and it could make sense to choose the pve one.

[Baphomette]

All right, I've been thinking about this for a while. There's absolutely a breakpoint where the extra weapon damage outweighs the extra damage from Power, the only question is where. Let's take a look at the PVE hierarchy.

i509 (5043.5 DPS) Shin'ka
i502 (4725.1 DPS) Starshatter
i496 (4468.2 DPS) Shin'ka
i489 (4186.0 DPS) Starshatter
i483 (3958.4 DPS) Shin'ka
i476 (3708.5 DPS) Starshatter

i470 (3506.9 DPS, +18% Power) S12 T1

Considerations, major to minor:

* The +18% from Power puts the S12 T1 weapon up to 4137.1, just under Normal Starshatter. However it also multiplies all of the damage from attack power which probably yields another 3-400 in full S12 gear. That puts it closer to Normal Shin'ka for weapon strikes, and unless I'm overlooking something at least equal to Heroic Shin'ka for non-weapon damage (= HB, NS) as the 960 Strength difference between the weapons is much less than 18%.

* Weapon upgrades double-dip on the PVP weapon. In addition to the extra weapon damage, it looks like it's +20.7% Power, which would put 2/2 T1 50 DPS ahead of 2/2 Normal Starshatter. Conversely, until you're in fully upgraded gear, a PVE weapon lets you put 1500 CP towards other pieces/upgrades which is a small difference in the other direction.

* PVP weapons have a good chunk of resilience on them. This doesn't add to damage, of course, but given two people outputting the same damage to each other, the one with less resilience dies first.

I'm pretty confident in saying Heroic Shin'ka > T1 > Normal Shin'ka. I can't say whether Heroic Starshatter is better or worse, but I imagine it's pretty close either way and it probably depends on how much Obliterate you get to use in PVP vs spending runes on non-weapon attacks. That's a pretty fair place for T1 to be. If I already had Heroic Starshatter, I'd probably get other S12 pieces first and buy the T1 later to use with Swordshattering.

For 1Hs, the breakpoint for one T1 vs two T1s is lower as the OH contributes half of the Power but much less than half of the damage. I'm sure Normal Kilrak + T1 beats dual T1s, possibly Normal Scimitar + T1, Normal Elegion + T1, or even LFR Kilrak + T1, as you get to use half of the Power multiplier on more than half of the extra weapon damage from PVE weapons. By the same token, I wouldn't expect any PVE weapon this tier to beat T1 as an OH.

I'd love to see some more solid numbers if anyone has them.

[Deleted]

Thanks for that !
As frost 2H pvp everything except maybe HB (which u shouldn't use much unless Rime) comes from weapon dmg, so with that into consideration and after reading your numbers if you don't have access to 2k2 and got 502 starshatter you better keep it for higher numbers at the loss of resilience.
Did i get it right ?

[Baphomette]

HB and Necrotic Strike. The anti-heal part of NS is based on raw AP and multiplied by PVP Power.

And yeah, if I had 502 Starshatter I'd buy all the rest of my Malevolent armor before buying a T1 (but I WOULD buy it, to put Swordshattering on).

[Deleted]

Thank you, great runeforge tip !

[Shaderas]

All right, I've been thinking about this for a while. There's absolutely a breakpoint where the extra weapon damage outweighs the extra damage from Power, the only question is where. Let's take a look at the PVE hierarchy.

i509 (5043.5 DPS) Shin'ka
i502 (4725.1 DPS) Starshatter
i496 (4468.2 DPS) Shin'ka
i489 (4186.0 DPS) Starshatter
i483 (3958.4 DPS) Shin'ka
i476 (3708.5 DPS) Starshatter

i470 (3506.9 DPS, +18% Power) S12 T1

Considerations, major to minor:

* The +18% from Power puts the S12 T1 weapon up to 4137.1, just under Normal Starshatter. However it also multiplies all of the damage from attack power which probably yields another 3-400 in full S12 gear. That puts it closer to Normal Shin'ka for weapon strikes, and unless I'm overlooking something at least equal to Heroic Shin'ka for non-weapon damage (= HB, NS) as the 960 Strength difference between the weapons is much less than 18%.

* Weapon upgrades double-dip on the PVP weapon. If it were still +18%, 2/2 T1 would still be ~50 DPS behind 2/2 Normal Starshatter, but the extra Power from upgrading will eliminate or even reverse that small gap -- Wowhead isn't displaying the right number for upgrades so I don't have exact figures in front of me, though it shouldn't be a huge difference. Conversely, until you're in fully upgraded gear, a PVE weapon lets you put 1500 CP towards other pieces/upgrades which is a small difference in the other direction.

* PVP weapons have a good chunk of resilience on them. This doesn't add to damage, of course, but given two people outputting the same damage to each other, the one with less resilience dies first.

I'm pretty confident in saying Heroic Shin'ka > T1 > Normal Shin'ka. I can't say whether Heroic Starshatter is better or worse, but I imagine it's pretty close either way and it probably depends on how much Obliterate you get to use in PVP vs spending runes on non-weapon attacks. That's a pretty fair place for T1 to be. If I already had Heroic Starshatter, I'd probably get other S12 pieces first and buy the T1 later to use with Swordshattering.

For 1Hs, the breakpoint for one T1 vs two T1s is lower as the OH contributes half of the Power but much less than half of the damage. I'm sure Normal Kilrak + T1 beats dual T1s, possibly Normal Scimitar + T1, Normal Elegion + T1, or even LFR Kilrak + T1, as you get to use half of the Power multiplier on more than half of the extra weapon damage from PVE weapons. By the same token, I wouldn't expect any PVE weapon this tier to beat T1 as an OH.

I'd love to see some more solid numbers if anyone has them.

I'm assuming the upgraded Elite weapons (I believe it would be ilevel 498 or so?) blow the other options out of the water for pvp?

[Baphomette]

I'm assuming the upgraded Elite weapons (I believe it would be ilevel 498 or so?) blow the other options out of the water for pvp?

It's better than i517 Shin'ka, though not by a huge amount. Anything less, yeah, pretty much blown away.