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  1. #401
    Most of the people I know that are wealthy here in America are foreigners. They cherish the economic freedoms here. They aren't highly educated, but work extremely hard, save money, and become millionaires. They understand capitalism. Its their children that often don't get it. They seem entitled. They don't work hard. They sit around and play games. They go to college, load up on debt, get a degree, and work for low pay. And then they complain the boss man is holding them back, vote democrat, and start destroying the very freedoms their parents fled towards.

    I don't understand why this happens, but it happens a lot. Maybe if everyone was forced to live under communism between the ages of 18-22, and then returned to capitalism after that, more people would understand.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    I think it's more on par with, "We suspect the Earth is round" vs. "We just sailed around the world to prove it."
    It is in fact quite like that. But we already knew with as much certainty as we can know anything that the Earth is round, long before Magellan. Direct confirmation is monumental to achieve, but science has established the facts from circumstantial evidence beforehand.


    What IS the sort of discovery you think Kasiereth was really looking for?
    I don't know, maybe something like the development of the theory of evolution, or special and general relativity, the invention of electrical generation. Or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    It would be if you didn't know whether or not the Statue of Liberty actually existed, and the Statue of Liberty was the agent of one of the four fundamental forces that defines all of reality.
    But we did know that. We just don't have direct evidence.

  3. #403
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Right... Communism was a way to enslave people and rob them blind. It's biggest problem was that most of the "leaders" were uneducated peasants that just followed orders from Moscow.

    Snitching on your neighbours telling "inapropriate" jokes or growing their own farm really helps build a "something global".
    Which totally doesn't happen these days. You still have someone else's hand in your pocket, democracy just gave an opportunity for everyone to steal to their delight. Now, not only government deceives you, but all these companies selling you crap that you don't actually need do so too.

    I look at my country's past 20 years and what do I see? Industry is dead. Totally dead. Russia no longer builds anything, what we still have is either outdated or rudimentary. Russian cars are crap, Russian weapons are still running on a generation-old basis of ideas and research. Latest space programs are miniscule and even they fail miserably. But yes, we have freedom of speech - which means you can't even turn on the TV without utter shit flooding the room. You only hear that everything's fine and we're moving towards a greater future, while everyone knows it's a lie and the government is corrupted through and through. Oncу they retire, they flee to some other, better country. The shipyard in my city, once big and meaningful, lies in ruins. New houses built often have defects. Other than that the only thing that grows like mushrooms after the rain are stupid trade centres with loads of things not worth a half their price. No one wants to work anymore. There are shitloads of economists, managers, advertisers, people that produce nothing and get paid for it. Market economy runs the show now, and it's only meaning is to feed marketologists, managers and other leeches by forcing us to buy and consume.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    I think that has to do with the stagnant competition. In the Cold War you had a rapid technological evolution because the US wanted to beat the Russians and vice versa, and then you'd get all these products derived from military technology. Today there aren't really any conflicts going on, and corporations has just made us comfortable with buying the same crap over and over (see iPhone), so there's not a lot of innovation that's going on. So communism has contributed, but not in the ways of ideals but more as a threat and inspiration.
    You're partially right. The sad truth is, war is good for economy and science. What do you think has cured the Great Depression? It was war. Nothing stimulates politicians to actually stop stealing and start caring about their country more. Insane amounts of money are instantly poured into military research, and in 5-10 years common folk enjoys the amazing by-products - like cellular networks. United States have grasped this idea pretty well, given that since WWII this state has known not a single year without waging some war in another place no one cares about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  4. #404
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    Communism isn't a system of government, it's an economic system. The problem isn't with communism itself, it's with human nature. The reason why communism is a total and resounding fail is that it forces people to give up their resources to the government. If people were naturally inclined to give like that for the betterment of society, it would be a great system. The problem is that people are forced to do so, which leads to the style of government that goes along with communism which is totalitarianism. Socialism in general would be ideal if everyone adopted it as something they wanted, but as it stands, it has to be forced. Therefore, it's a bad system.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Typrax View Post
    The problem isn't with communism itself, it's with human nature. The reason why communism is a total and resounding fail is that it forces people to give up their resources to the government. If people were naturally inclined to give like that for the betterment of society, it would be a great system.
    Failure to take human nature into account is a massive failure for a system that's designed to work with... humans.

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Failure to take human nature into account is a massive failure for a system that's designed to work with... humans.
    Which is why Karl Marx was a retard.

  7. #407
    Warchief Knight Gil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Failure to take human nature into account is a massive failure for a system that's designed to work with... humans.
    There is no such thing as "Human Nature"

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight Gil View Post
    There is no such thing as "Human Nature"
    And your evidence for this claim is what, thin air?

  9. #409
    Warchief Knight Gil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    And your evidence for this claim is what, thin air?
    What defines humanity is it's capability of overcoming simple natural instincts. Humans' identity is extremely dependant on culture, not merely on DNA and natural tendencies. A human who would be defined as selfish and greedy in one culture / familiar background / neighbourhood / etc could be grown as altruistic and empathetic in other. If a human grows in a violent family, with an alcoholic father and whatnot, there are chances he will become violent too, whether if he is adopted by a caring and nurturing family, chances are that won't happen. Sure, there's DNA coded on each one of us. But it's role is limited. I didn't learn to write or turn a TV on because of my DNA. Hell, one could say that certain behaviours of mine (confidence / lack of it or extroversion / introversion) are the exact opposite of what my "nature" is supposed to be. But I learned those behaviours with time. I wasn't born that way.

    Want more solid "Evidence"? Feral childs. Look into it. Further proof that a human is only so when he overcomes nature.


    That's why saying "Human Nature" is an oxymoron, a fallacy, and has no coherent meaning at all. I wish people would drop that term already.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Which totally doesn't happen these days. You still have someone else's hand in your pocket, democracy just gave an opportunity for everyone to steal to their delight. Now, not only government deceives you, but all these companies selling you crap that you don't actually need do so too.
    My parents have been running their own small business for over 15 years. Trying to make something and build a business will never be easy, but at least after the fall of communism they were allowed to work for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    I look at my country's past 20 years and what do I see? Industry is dead. Totally dead. Russia no longer builds anything, what we still have is either outdated or rudimentary. Russian cars are crap, Russian weapons are still running on a generation-old basis of ideas and research. Latest space programs are miniscule and even they fail miserably. But yes, we have freedom of speech - which means you can't even turn on the TV without utter shit flooding the room. You only hear that everything's fine and we're moving towards a greater future, while everyone knows it's a lie and the government is corrupted through and through. Oncу they retire, they flee to some other, better country. The shipyard in my city, once big and meaningful, lies in ruins. New houses built often have defects. Other than that the only thing that grows like mushrooms after the rain are stupid trade centres with loads of things not worth a half their price. No one wants to work anymore. There are shitloads of economists, managers, advertisers, people that produce nothing and get paid for it. Market economy runs the show now, and it's only meaning is to feed marketologists, managers and other leeches by forcing us to buy and consume.
    The Situation is the same here. We have the World bank, EU and NPOs barking orders and regulations. The Communst Industry crumbled, because it was not able to compete. It was slow and its workers were lazy and unmotivated. This was all bred by the Communist doctrine. The motto of the workers 23 years ago was "He pretends he is paying and i pretend i am working". Don't get me started on the lack of freedom. So many people were killed for speaking out.

    Communism destroyed workers ethics and the sense of community.

  11. #411
    Scarab Lord Zka's Avatar
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    Hungarian here.

    I really hate people who think it was so good back then in the communism. They don't understand that the whole thing was economically unsustainable and it has put our country into deep debt we still could not escape from. Communism was funded by the soviet block, then later on loans by Germany (West-Germany back then), then IMF (yes, really). Actually these loans forced the change of system. We still pay these debts. Everything you saw in the communist era was a lie. You could not afford these infrastructure. You did not produce as much as you received. And so on.

    The people are ignorant of this. The mindset of the average hungarian is still anticapitalist and/or communist. They want all kinds of free services, they want work opportunities provided by the government, while they absolutely lack any kind of skill that has value for the modern economy.
    This mindset guarantees failure. We are already at 0 or negative GDP growth, while less idiotic ex-communist countries are still expanding by 3-5% per year. This would not be a problem, but about 30-50% of the country is literally at the edge of famine, they cannot pay their bills and such.

    Ah I almost forgot that the country is brutally aging because the communist idiots invented the 3 years long maternity leave (this nonsense is still in effect!!!) and made a huge baby boom around the 60s-70s. The demographic timebomb is still ticking, but the effects are already felt heavily.

    For the reasons above, this country is beyond repair. No wonder that the most skilled and intelligent people have recently began to emigrate in droves.

    The ONLY thing that was indeed better in communism stems from the censorship. Censorship did not let esoteric, religious, racist or other antiscientific crap to pollute people's mind.
    Last edited by Zka; 2013-01-03 at 11:37 AM.

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  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Typrax View Post
    The reason why communism is a total and resounding fail is that it forces people to give up their resources to the government.
    Hmm seems you know something about communism, so perhaps you can help me. I’ve always thought that communism was, in the original meaning, a state of human existence where no government was present, that all lived in cohesion/unity/etc. But you say that communism has a government, or perhaps we’re talking about different types of “communism”?
    Yes, I’m another dyslexic, and yes my main language is not English, so please don’t doubt me on spelling & grammar, but on all the foolish, uneducated & biased things I say. Thank you in advance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek View Post
    It makes sense if you don't think about it.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    Ah I almost forgot that the country is brutally aging because the communist idiots invented the 3 years long maternity leave (this nonsense is still in effect!!!) and made a huge baby boom around the 60s-70s. The demographic timebomb is still ticking, but the effects are already felt heavily.
    At the moment there are around 1 million people like me who work in private companies and more than 2 million pensioners. My taxes go to pay for 2 pensioners and 1 unemployed person. No wonder that we are the fastest dying nation in the EU.
    Last edited by Cybran; 2013-01-03 at 11:49 AM.

  14. #414
    High Overlord DaveL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuk View Post
    I am also a Czech citizen and I do not agree. Communism is the worst thing that ever been.
    ^this

    People saying how awesome it was in communism, never really encountered it, mostly born post 1985´s and dreaming how awesome it surer was. No. If you REALLY knew how it really was, you should never (even think) want it back in any form. Be happy for that clowns and idiots in our/your goverment. They are far way better than communist were.

    /speaking for Czech citizens who lived in that mess.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight Gil View Post
    What defines humanity is it's capability of overcoming simple natural instincts.
    Yes that is a totally valid reason for arguing that those natural instincts therefore don't exist. Oh wait, that actually don't make any sense whatsoever.

    Our culture is built from natural tendencies. We seek out human interaction because we are genetically programmed to be social animals, and that is the basis of human civilisation. Everything around you derives from human nature.


    Sure, there's DNA coded on each one of us. But it's role is limited. I didn't learn to write or turn a TV on because of my DNA.
    That's why saying "Human Nature" is an oxymoron, a fallacy, and has no coherent meaning at all. I wish people would drop that term already.
    You might even be making any sense whatsoever if anyone applies human nature to "write" or "turn on TV". But nobody except you does that, which means this is just a pile of straws in your strawman argument.


    Want more solid "Evidence"?
    I want any actual evidence, not this mess of incoherent gibberish you just wrote, which amounted to "there is no human nature IF I redefine the phrase completely to mean some strawman nonsense".

  16. #416
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typrax View Post
    Which is why Karl Marx was a retard.
    Ugh.

    OT: This argument that communism goes against human nature is a rather silly one if you ask me. There are countries where there are more people that are altruistic enough for communism than there are people that are greedy enough for capitalism. So yeah, how does your anti-communist "human nature" account for that? What a silly argument. There is no universal human nature.
    Last edited by Wikiy; 2013-01-03 at 01:49 PM.

  17. #417
    Warchief Knight Gil's Avatar
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    Yes that is a totally valid reason for arguing that those natural instincts therefore don't exist. Oh wait, that actually don't make any sense whatsoever.
    I didn't say that natural instincts didn't exist. I said that what people usually mean by "Human nature" is utter garbage, because even if natural instincts exist, the human species isn't entirely driven by it.

    Our culture is built from natural tendencies. We seek out human interaction because we are genetically programmed to be social animals, and that is the basis of human civilisation. Everything around you derives from human nature.
    Actually, the entire meaning of culture is about something that makes you get away from the natural world. It is natural to piss and take a shit in any place, whenever you want it, but you won't do it. You are taught to hold it and do it in the toilet. We seek out human interaction because we are genetically programmed? Not entirely. Many people seek human interaction because culture, marketing for example, teaches you that you are only as cool as how many facebook friends you have.

    Rape is also a natural thing. Culturally, it is frowned upon. Laws are cultural. There are laws against rape, because people know that civilization only works if you overcome natural instincts. The laws of attraction are instinctive. However, you don't just act upon them, because that is considered sexual assault.

    In the same way, greed is taught by culture. You are taught to be greedy and envious when marketing incentives you to buy the coolest car possible to look better than your neighbour. In nature, you need to survive, and in order to do so, you need to rely on your community, and share whatever you have. You can't be greedy, because in nature you'll just be ostracised by your peers, not envied by them. In nature, you share your fruits with your community. In culture, you accumulate the most "fruits" possible because supposedly that will give you prestige. And even if you might say that while the leader of a wolf pack usually spares the biggest part of the hunt to him, that is totally different from that situation. Because the person who accumulates the most goods isn't necessarily the strongest one. In nature, it's brawl over brains. Today, we have science, highly complex economics, art, technology, etc, and that is what defines humanity. Only some species have some form of basic economics. Everything else from that list is not natural. We are not a natural species. There is no human nature.

    You might even be making any sense whatsoever if anyone applies human nature to "write" or "turn on TV". But nobody except you does that, which means this is just a pile of straws in your strawman argument.
    Not my problem you can't grasp the logical fallacy in your argument, just don't try to turn it against myself, when I'm the one trying to show the problem with your reasoning. And mindlessly calling other arguments "strawman" just because you don't agree with them or can't understand them doesn't make them so. Come back with better arguments of your own, please

    I want any actual evidence, not this mess of incoherent gibberish you just wrote, which amounted to "there is no human nature IF I redefine the phrase completely to mean some strawman nonsense".
    How despicable that you dismissed the rest of that line just to suit your argument. How despicable. You just lost all credibility and I won't bother with you further until you address that line.

  18. #418
    This topic makes me sad. No communism was not better then democracy for our country (Romania) the only ones that liked it back there were the hardcore communists the ones that worked for our secret service (Sercuritatea).

    They were the ones that made files on every citizen, they often lied to put the subject in a bad light so he could get arrested. They gained from that, make "nationlize" his house, force his wife to leave him and then remarry with her, steal his stashed away money...

    On top of that you had an "elite" community that ruled with the dictator, they were not elected and not smart or sharp at all. They had 0 contributions, that's how they were choosen. A stupid person would kiss the leaders ass more and not question his judgment where a smart person will not do that.

    So you had a fucked up system, where you had no free market, no real economy, no real intellectuals and no choice on what you want to do with your life, either as in what job to have (state gave you a job once you finished uni), who to marry, where to live. On top of that you add a police state, where prosecutors would get signed blank warrents so they could arrest and charge you with anything.

    It was a state of terror for the person that likes to actually live his own life, even if in this democracy you are "guided" or "persuaded" to do something, you still have a choice.

    While the rest, the ones that were stupid, dumb or maybe mediocre and comfy could comply to what orders they would get, not question anything and hope the state would provide. Because why not, ignorance is bliss!

    And as a TL;DR: OP topic makes me sad and sick at the same time, almost ashamend he thinks this way after all he read/experienced maybe about communism. Add to that the people that died at our revolution so it just denigrates there names also. At least they had the balls to do something, anything, to change even one thing into something better that now we actually benefit from.
    Last edited by naturestorm; 2013-01-03 at 02:09 PM.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    OT: This argument that communism goes against human nature is a rather silly one if you ask me. There are countries where there are more people that are altruistic enough for communism than there are people that are greedy enough for capitalism.
    That is racist.

  20. #420
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    They were the ones that made files on every citizen, they often lied to put the subject in a bad light so he could get arrested. They gained from that, make "nationlize" his house, force his wife to leave him and then remarry with her, steal his stashed away money...
    Sounds a lot like the Roman practice of prescription. That totally sucks.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 02:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    It is in fact quite like that. But we already knew with as much certainty as we can know anything that the Earth is round, long before Magellan. Direct confirmation is monumental to achieve, but science has established the facts from circumstantial evidence beforehand.



    I don't know, maybe something like the development of the theory of evolution, or special and general relativity, the invention of electrical generation. Or something.



    But we did know that. We just don't have direct evidence.
    Science is all about making a hypothesis and then testing it. It's a bit silly to say making the hypothesis is a huge accomplishment in science, but the testing of the hypothesis isn't.
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