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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    And it's not more racist to label a part of the world civilized?
    Oh it for sure is racist especially with my intent behind it, that does not mean his statement isnt.

  2. #442
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superp View Post
    You can easily compare greed levels of a country by looking at it and comparing its debt levels to a poor country. Lets say America - Africa, if Africa was given 15 trillion dollers to fix its house and basically copy America in every sense, to build proper hospitals schools and businesses, how many lives would be saved and changed for ever. This is a good comparison because you can say well look at the huge contrast, in the two look at what could happen and how many lives could be saved.

    I would not say its greed, i would say they dont want to know, they know but they dont want to know, because if its not staring you in the face you dont care about it, so lets fix what we ca see and what we are responsible, in communism i believe they have a different method, which is everyone stands together and instand one 1 continent having 15 trillion in debt they each have 7.5, and they work for they basis.

    but as i said i would not rush into communism by any stretch of the imagination.
    If you gave $15 trillion to Africa, you'd be $15 trillion poorer and nothing significant would change for Africa. Africa's problems aren't from a lack of money. They're from cultural issues and a hostile environment.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 03:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deafknight View Post
    If you had won the Sakurai Prize twice and said something stupid i would still call you out.
    Calling me stupid and making baseless assumptions about my understanding of science doesn't really serve to make a point.
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  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Deafknight View Post
    He probably does not understand what a scientific hypothesis is
    Eh, a bit uncalled for; I'm sure Reeve understands it. It's just very intuitive to think that it's existence is only proven (in the lay sense) when scientists say they discovered it. Of course, physicists were looking for it because they agree it existed from maths done 5 decades ago, but yeah.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Calling me stupid and making baseless assumptions about my understanding of science doesn't really serve to make a point.
    Saying something stupid does not make you stupid which actually was implied by the first part of my sentence.
    I can for certain say something about your reading comprehension now though.

  5. #445
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deafknight View Post
    Oh it for sure is racist especially with my intent behind it, that does not mean his statement isnt.
    My statement isn't racist for other reasons. I replied why but apparently it's too hard to explain your logic as to why it's racist. Oh, wait, yeah, there is no logic behind it and you were fishing for an easy ad hominem.

  6. #446
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    Communism/Socialism is for the people not the Communist/Socialist. They grow fat while the people have to contend with the mandates of the Government. For example the people have to wait in line to get food or clothes where as the leaders have it brought to them and do not have to ration.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbjr3314 View Post
    Communism/Socialism is for the people not the Communist/Socialist. They grow fat while the people have to contend with the mandates of the Government. For example the people have to wait in line to get food or clothes where as the leaders have it brought to them and do not have to ration.
    Meanwhile in Capitalism leaders live with the exact same style of living than their people, right?

    There isnt a single rich leader while people in his country die of hunger, right?

    Want to know a funny thing? No one dies of hunger in Cuba for example (and by this i dont say Cuba is perfect), while plenty of people dies of hunger in every single capitalist country you can name.

    Capitalysm has its problems, many of them, but social injustice is nto one of them, Capitalysm has by farm a lot more social injustice.

    The biggest problem of Communism is lack of freedom.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-01-03 at 04:38 PM.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    No, it's not. Some people just don't realized how bad it was, because they were likely party members and/or snitches. Like the people that used to run the stores in my town. They stole stuff and used to treat people like shit, because they had a little power. Now i can just walk 3 minutes to the next store, but when everything is state owned? What then?
    Walk to the next store and buy nothing cause you can't afford primary goods? Ok then.
    Cause this is what's happening.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbjr3314 View Post
    Communism/Socialism is for the people not the Communist/Socialist. They grow fat while the people have to contend with the mandates of the Government. For example the people have to wait in line to get food or clothes where as the leaders have it brought to them and do not have to ration.
    Communism and Socialism are not equal. Any modern democracy has some sort of socialism because like it not the government is actually for the people. So what some US citizens might think it's a socialist and unthinkable compromise as in free heathcare works good in the vast majority of other countries. You can't have a "pure" democracy where none gives a fuck about the other as then the state will not function.

    Of course you pay taxes, you except something in return, some will benefit sooner then other, some more then other. But that's just how the government functions, how the unsigned contract works.

    Helping in proving free or reduced services for your citizens can be called socialism, but it's a normal and decent thing.

    But restraining markets, limiting the options of your citizens or how they should behave, think, act and reign with one party, one dictator that's communism, and it's a very bad thing.
    Last edited by naturestorm; 2013-01-03 at 05:04 PM.

  10. #450
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    I'm having a real hard time with judgmental statements. Especially when they come from people who either never been in such situation at all, and can only rely on media reports whatsoever. And don't be naive. The cold war was not one sided. BOTH sides spilled out enough anti propaganda.

    Truth of the matter is, that we never had true communism at work. True communism would be a wonderful system. Unfortunately human nature gets in the way.
    What we refer to today have hardly been communist countries. That's been totalitarian regimes, that were based rather loosely on communist principles.
    There was a lot of stuff wrong with those regimes, hence why there was a lot of stuff wrong with their society and the provision of supplies and the like.
    But since the grass just isn't always greener on the other side, it's the same way here too.
    Just like people can argue that Saddam was good for keeping a peace amongst the Iraqi people, even if it was a peace he forced onto them, one can also say that there were people who in fact have been better off during the "communist regime" times.
    Would I want to live in such regime, under such conditions, hell no... I wouldn't mind to try true communism tho.
    But true communism doesn't imprison it's people. Yet I on the other hand, stood there at the fence in Bavaria. 10 meters tall, watch towers ever 100 meter. Auto-shooting systems that would fire at everything that moves any close to the fence, within 50 meters distance, on the other side of the fence. Death-Strip it's been called.
    All whats missing was mines, and I suppose they didn't put them down, to avoid to have to repair the fence every now and then.
    No, that wasn't communism what I saw. That was an oversized concentration camp. Also known as Eastern Germany, at that time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 11:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Communism and Socialism are not equal. Any modern democracy has some sort of socialism because like it not the government is actually for the people. So what some US citizens might think it's a socialist and unthinkable compromise as in free heathcare works good in the vast majority of other countries. You can't have a "pure" democracy where none gives a fuck about the other as then the state will not function.

    Of course you pay taxes, you except something in return, some will benefit sooner then other, some more then other. But that's just how the government functions, how the unsigned contract works.

    Helping in proving free or reduced services for your citizens can be called socialism, but it's a normal and decent thing.

    But restraining markets, limiting the options of your citizens or how they should behave, think, act and reign with one party, one dictator that's communism, and it's a very bad thing.
    I am afraid that a good portion of many US citizens approach of social topics or socialism are remains of the negative propaganda towards the Soviet regime. It is what it is. Those two were the main protagonists of the cold war.. It was Soviets vs America.
    And both sides weren't tired to taint their messages, painting the other side as the incarnation of all evil.
    But just like the Soviets lied about how evil capitalism is, as much was the message thrown out about how evil or bad socialism is.
    None of the two is true. Neither capitalism nor socialism are evil.
    In fact.. Plenty countries today funding their social benefits for their population through capitalistic means. Those people are usually very happy with their living quality.

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Meanwhile in Capitalism leaders live with the exact same style of living than their people, right?

    There isnt a single rich leader while people in his country die of hunger, right?

    Want to know a funny thing? No one dies of hunger in Cuba for example (and by this i dont say Cuba is perfect), while plenty of people dies of hunger in every single capitalist country you can name.

    Capitalysm has its problems, many of them, but social injustice is nto one of them, Capitalysm has by farm a lot more social injustice.

    The biggest problem of Communism is lack of freedom.
    It is Freedom that is the way. Guess what most people that starve or have not in most free nations end up in the situation because of a choice they made somewhere in life (I am not including the handicap or mental challenged in this cause they usually had no choice). Most of your rich in free nations got there cause they had the freedom to work hard and made something of there self and usually a product or service that society wanted (Supply and Demand). I came from a poor South Georgia family but a hard working family, and as I was soon enough to work I went with my dad and worked every break I had from school to pay for my own clothes and recreational things. Nothing was handed to me. I paid for my own college and by the age of 24 I owned my own business that I sold 3 yrs later for double profit and moved to Florida to work for years as a chef before coming back to my hometown to get a very high paying job as an IT manager at big paper mill. This would not have been possible for me under communist rule. Freedom allowed this not government.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbjr3314 View Post
    It is Freedom that is the way. Guess what most people that starve or have not in most free nations end up in the situation because of a choice they made somewhere in life (I am not including the handicap or mental challenged in this cause they usually had no choice). Most of your rich in free nations got there cause they had the freedom to work hard and made something of there self and usually a product or service that society wanted (Supply and Demand). I came from a poor South Georgia family but a hard working family, and as I was soon enough to work I went with my dad and worked every break I had from school to pay for my own clothes and recreational things. Nothing was handed to me. I paid for my own college and by the age of 24 I owned my own business that I sold 3 yrs later for double profit and moved to Florida to work for years as a chef before coming back to my hometown to get a very high paying job as an IT manager at big paper mill. This would not have been possible for me under communist rule. Freedom allowed this not government.
    You really think people are pooor because they chose to?

    Most of the Rich people are rich because their family was rich, and most rich families got rich because they took advantage of others to their benefits, or because they got land taken from natives, or because they had friends in a monarchy/goverment/etc.

    Not everyone have the same opportunities. The son of Rockefeller has much more alternatives than the son of a minimal wages temporary worked in a plantation which will probably have to work to help his father do his job.

    Again, anecdotal evidense is useless, yes, a few people have luck and ascend in the social stair, But BILLONS of hard working people work even 16 hours straight without earning enough to have any social mobility, because that's what capitalism is.

    In a comunism, in theory, you would have everything you need, and you wouldnt feel a need to consume everything you can like a lot of people in the frist world countries have (and that is only possible because of the cheap work in the third world countries sustaining their live style). I dont think this can be applied today under any modern society. We need to grow up as societies a lot more to even think about it.

    If you really think a poor kid in Somalia, Sudan, or any other third world country has the same opportunities than a rich person, then you are too naive.

    In Capitalism, those who have the Capital are very likely to keep having it, even without much hard work, and those that are poor are very likely to stay that way, no matter how hard they work.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-01-03 at 06:57 PM.

  13. #453
    Field Marshal jdbjr3314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    You really think people are pooor because they chose to?

    Most of the Rich people are rich because their family was rich, and most rich families got rich because they took advantage of others to their benefits, or because they got land taken from natives, or because they had friends in a monarchy/goverment/etc.

    Not everyone have the same opportunities. The son of Rockefeller has much more alternatives than the son of a minimal wages temporary worked in a plantation which will probably have to work to help his father do his job.

    Again, anecdotal evidense is useless, yes, a few people have luck and ascend in the social stair, But BILLONS of hard working people work even 16 hours straight without earning enough to have any social mobility, because that's what capitalism is.

    In a comunism, in theory, you would have everything you need, and you wouldnt feel a need to consume everything you can like a lot of people in the frist world countries have (and that is only possible because of the cheap work in the third world countries sustaining their live style). I dont think this can be applied today under any modern society. We need to grow up as societies a lot more to even think about it.

    If you really think a poor kid in Somalia, Sudan, or any other third world country has the same opportunities than a rich person, then you are too naive.

    In Capitalism, those who have the Capital are very likely to keep having it, even without much hard work, and those that are poor are very likely to stay that way, no matter how hard they work.
    I never said anyone choose to be poor way to take my words and twist the good job I said " Guess what most people that starve or have not in most free nations end up in the situation because of a choice they made somewhere in life (I am not including the handicap or mental challenged in this cause they usually had no choice)." Be the way Rockefeller himself started with nothing to become the richest man in the world, so did Vanderbilt, and Carnage. Only 5% of the rich in america inherited there wealth. The rest my friend was earned. And by the again 3rd world countries are usually not free countries, they have despots and dictators running the country. So try reading again before you miss-quote me for you own political gain.

  14. #454
    The problem isn't the form but if the peoples that live in the country have the guts to keep those in the gov in check; the main problem nowdays is that peoples are passive, they still whine on forums but never act. You think that your gov is doing it wrong and no matter who you vote nothing gonna change? Well it's time to start to pick up the good ol' and act.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbjr3314 View Post
    I never said anyone choose to be poor way to take my words and twist the good job I said " Guess what most people that starve or have not in most free nations end up in the situation because of a choice they made somewhere in life (I am not including the handicap or mental challenged in this cause they usually had no choice)." Be the way Rockefeller himself started with nothing to become the richest man in the world, so did Vanderbilt, and Carnage. Only 5% of the rich in america inherited there wealth. The rest my friend was earned. And by the again 3rd world countries are usually not free countries, they have despots and dictators running the country. So try reading again before you miss-quote me for you own political gain.
    And 99% of statistic in internet are made up.

    Rockefeller stated as a middle class man, yes (not poor), but all his inheritance will be rich probably for a long time. Most third world countries are in fact free countries, so i am afraid your disrespect to them is biased. Every country in Latin America (except Cuba and some people debate that too) today is a free country, most of the countries in Asia are free. I think all the countries in Oceania are free too. Africa stays as the one with less free countries, but many of them are free too.

    And you are mistaken, most of the people that are poor are not by choices made by their own, they are poor because their family was poor and they couldnt change their fate.

    Again, go tell the 8 year old kids helping their fathers on plantations that a choice they made sometime made them be poor, or the kids working on textiles factories in Asia.

    Again, you are too naive, you need to get a shower of reality.

  16. #456
    Field Marshal jdbjr3314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    And 99% of statistic in internet are made up.

    Rockefeller stated as a middle class man, yes (not poor), but all his inheritance will be rich probably for a long time. Most third world countries are in fact free countries, so i am afraid your disrespect to them is biased. Every country in Latin America (except Cuba and some people debate that too) today is a free country, most of the countries in Asia are free. I think all the countries in Oceania are free too. Africa stays as the one with less free countries, but many of them are free too.

    And you are mistaken, most of the people that are poor are not by choices made by their own, they are poor because their family was poor and they couldnt change their fate.

    Again, go tell the 8 year old kids helping their fathers on plantations that a choice they made sometime made them be poor, or the kids working on textiles factories in Asia.

    Again, you are too naive, you need to get a shower of reality.

    And what you need my friend is a dose of hard work and hope. I believe all no matter where you are from can strive to be better as long as there is a beacon of freedom some where in this world all can achieve what ever there heart desires. That is not possible under communism.. When ever one is the same, no one stands out.

  17. #457
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    The problem isn't the form but if the peoples that live in the country have the guts to keep those in the gov in check; the main problem nowdays is that peoples are passive, they still whine on forums but never act. You think that your gov is doing it wrong and no matter who you vote nothing gonna change? Well it's time to start to pick up the good ol' and act.
    You do that. Me? I happen to think that the developed world is currently living under some of the best governance the world has ever seen. That's not to say that it doesn't screw up, but it's a hell of a lot better than a lot of the things we've done in the past.
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  18. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Edit: I'd also like to add i was referring to Sweden as an example of a country that has more people that are altruistic enough for communism than those that are greedy enough for capitalism. Not a pseudo-communist totalitarian system like China or North Korea for which we have no idea how altruistic people are there. So i wasn't even drawing a West-East parallel.
    We've never really had a strong communist movement here, it was always more social democracy, most of our socialists didn't believe in a forced revolution or anything like that, so what one would call communists have never been more then a fringe movement, stronger in some municiplities, but I don't think they've been in the parliament ever. At least not in my lifetime(28 years).

    Our socialist movement was what later became the Social democratic party. Which still is the biggest party(the moderates-rightwing are the 2nd biggest), but they are far from communists. We've had a rightwing-liberal government(I vote FP, the liberal party) in power for the last 6 years though. The most left leaning party we got in parliament is the Vänster(Left) party, the social democrates are left, but more to the center. I don't really like the "Vänster"(left) party, but they are not communists. The Right sometimes try to score cheap points by calling them that though.

    Our communist parties generally don't get more then 2% of the votes in the partliament elections. You need 4% to get seats in the parliament. They do get higher % in certain local elections though.

    Business, entrepenourship and hard work has always been highly valued, and most people are of the opinion that hard work pays off, which it does. Interesting fact is that it's actually both cheaper and much easier to start your own business here compared to for example the US. I think people are sometimes a bit misinformed and think we live in a crazy draconian sociaty that regulates everything to shit, while in reality there are often less regulations but smarter ones in place then in more "capitalistic" nations.

    Think tanks like the Heritage Foundation actually gives my country top marks when it comes to easy of doing business and business freedom. ;P

    What you could say is that most people and pretty much all political parties in my country understand the value in taxes and that we have a responsibility to contribute to sociaty for the greater good. Which also goes along with the fact that we got quite a high trust in our government officials and politicians, government accountability and transparency is also something organizations like the Heritage Foundation gives us top marks in. I think we've had 5 ministers removed over the last 6 years because they did things that the public disliked, last one was our Minister of defense 2012, it was some shady deal in Saudi Arabia with an arms/weapons factory we helped them set up.

    Trust, accountability and transparency is absolutely vital if you want to tax people as high as you do here.
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  19. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    You do that. Me? I happen to think that the developed world is currently living under some of the best governance the world has ever seen. That's not to say that it doesn't screw up, but it's a hell of a lot better than a lot of the things we've done in the past.
    Even if it was the best the world has ever seen, it's got potential to be 1000x better.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbjr3314 View Post
    And what you need my friend is a dose of hard work and hope. I believe all no matter where you are from can strive to be better as long as there is a beacon of freedom some where in this world all can achieve what ever there heart desires. That is not possible under communism.. When ever one is the same, no one stands out.
    Again, you belive that, but that is not real. You need a shower of reality. There are a lot of people in free countries without any real posibility of social mobility.

    I even gave examples to you. And i dont know why you mention communism to me, when i said real communism cant be implemented in current society and the practical communisms implemented were bad.

    Also, i dont think people standing out is a neccesity. I belive some people feel the necesity to stand out, but that is because we havent grown up as a society enough, we are still young.

    Some day, people's neccesity of knowing no one dies of hunger will be bigger than people's neccesity of standing out.

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