Are DeathKnights really dead?

[TheWindWalker]

"Arthas never died..." -Chris Metzen (http://wow.joystiq.com/2007/08/04/bl...anel-liveblog/)

While he has the authority to say so, Arthas was classified as "Undead" in WC3:TFT. The moment they don't have a heart beat anymore and are animated through magic alone, they died.

[Wilian]

While he has the authority to say so, Arthas was classified as "Undead" in WC3:TFT. The moment they don't have a heart beat anymore and are animated through magic alone, they died.

Arthas ripped his heart from his own chest so that should pretty much confirm his state

Anyhow, Death Knights are divided into three generations:

1st Generation were Death Knights of the Horde, raised by warlocks from human corpses whom then had orc warlock spirit put into them.
2nd Generation were the fallen Paladins of Lordaeron whom were corrupted and/or willingly followed Arthas.
3rd Generation are the player Death Knights whom were raised and given more autonomy than the usual risen ones because Arthas needed plenty of new thinking capable tools on his conquest of Azeroth.

[TheWindWalker]

Arthas ripped his heart from his own chest so that should pretty much confirm his state

So, what you're saying is. According to canon "Arthas never died" but according to canon "Arthas ripped out his heart." Oh the tangled webs we weave when first we practice to write novels with several different authors.

[Boogums]

So, what you're saying is. According to canon "Arthas never died" but according to canon "Arthas ripped out his heart." Oh the tangled webs we weave when first we practice to write novels with several different authors.

One piece of canon was released way before the other. In 2007, before Wrath of the Lich King, Metzen said he never died. In 2008 Arthas' heart is revealed to have been ripped out. Of course, Blizzard's definition of what "undead" means for them may not be what the real world definition of undead is.

However I stand by what I said earlier in that PC death knights are undead.

Of course, just because Arthas wasn't undead when he became a Death Knight doesn't mean that he didn't become undead later on.

[The Madgod]

First generation: Undead. They were created by placing the souls of deceased orcish warlocks into the corpses of Stormwind knights.

Second generation: Kinda sorta a mix. They technically haven't DIED, so I don't feel comfortable calling them undead, but they do show some signs of undeath... for example, Arthas cut out his heart, yet didn't die, despite that being something that should have killed them.

Third generation (the playable death knights: Undead. They were souls who were fighting for the Argent Dawn and were slain in the plaguelands.

[Boogums]

First generation: Undead. They were created by placing the souls of deceased orcish warlocks into the corpses of Stormwind knights.

Second generation: Kinda sorta a mix. They technically haven't DIED, so I don't feel comfortable calling them undead, but they do show some signs of undeath... for example, Arthas cut out his heart, yet didn't die, despite that being something that should have killed them.

Third generation (the playable death knights: Undead. They were souls who were fighting for the Argent Dawn and were slain in the plaguelands.

For Second Generation, I don't think they are undead at all (including Arthas).

"Death Knights were once virtuous defenders of Humanity. However, once the Paladin ranks were disbanded by the failing Alliance, many of these holy warriors traveled to the quarantined lands to ease the suffering of those left within the plague-ridden colonies. Though the Paladins were immune to disease of any kind, they were persecuted by the general populace who believed that they had been infected by the foul plague. A small band of Paladins, embittered by society's cruelty, traveled north to find the plague's source. These renegade Paladins succumbed to bitter hatred over the course of their grueling quest. When they finally reached Ner'zhul's icy fortress in Northrend they had become dark and brooding. The Lich King offered them untold power in exchange for their services and loyalty. The weary, vengeful warriors accepted his dark pact, and although they retained their humanity, their twisted souls were bound to his evil will for all time. Bestowed with black, vampiric Runeblades and shadowy steeds, Death Knights serve as the Scourge's mightiest generals."

[The Madgod]

For Second Generation, I don't think they are undead at all (including Arthas).

"Death Knights were once virtuous defenders of Humanity. However, once the Paladin ranks were disbanded by the failing Alliance, many of these holy warriors traveled to the quarantined lands to ease the suffering of those left within the plague-ridden colonies. Though the Paladins were immune to disease of any kind, they were persecuted by the general populace who believed that they had been infected by the foul plague. A small band of Paladins, embittered by society's cruelty, traveled north to find the plague's source. These renegade Paladins succumbed to bitter hatred over the course of their grueling quest. When they finally reached Ner'zhul's icy fortress in Northrend they had become dark and brooding. The Lich King offered them untold power in exchange for their services and loyalty. The weary, vengeful warriors accepted his dark pact, and although they retained their humanity, their twisted souls were bound to his evil will for all time. Bestowed with black, vampiric Runeblades and shadowy steeds, Death Knights serve as the Scourge's mightiest generals."

Well yeah, that's what I'm coming from.

[Albert the fish]

it's not that confusing
Gen1: clearly undead. dead necrolyte souls bound to dead human knight bodies.
Gen2: undead, though they never died. it would seem that hanging around intense unholy magics for extended periods just 'turns' you undead without the muss or fuss of dying. similar to how hanging around enough demonic magic seems to turn people into demons by mere association
Gen3: playable. undead. we're specifically stated to be risen from the dead. however we seem have a far more sophisticated level of necromancy at our disposal than the majority of undead entities. this sophistication allows us greater control over our own undeath, reflected in our ability to ignore many inherent negatives of undeath (powers that affect undead targets exclusively or for extra effect don't have these effects on Death Knights.) and to call upon the specific strengths (like becoming immune to many mental effects when popping Lichborne) basically we are an evolved enough form of undead that we get to pick and choose what parts of undeath we adhere to( at least to a certain extent, we don't have absolute control over the condition)

[Mormolyce]

Blizzard has never really made up its mind on this issue, originally it seemed as if they never actually died (Arthas being the prime example there), but more recently the implication seems to be that they are brought back from the dead.

The Death Knights of the Second War (eg, Teron Gorefiend) were actually the spirits of Orcs put into the corpses of human knights, so they were properly undead in the traditional sense (though their spirit and body were from different people, even different races which is a bit weird). But they're a totally different kind of being to the Death Knights of Warcraft III and WoW.

soooo... where would that put a forsaken Death Knight

In the realm of "why is this canon?" I always thought.

[The Madgod]

Gen3: playable. undead. we're specifically stated to be risen from the dead. however we seem have a far more sophisticated level of necromancy at our disposal than the majority of undead entities. this sophistication allows us greater control over our own undeath, reflected in our ability to ignore many inherent negatives of undeath (powers that affect undead targets exclusively or for extra effect don't have these effects on Death Knights.) and to call upon the specific strengths (like becoming immune to many mental effects when popping Lichborne) basically we are an evolved enough form of undead that we get to pick and choose what parts of undeath we adhere to( at least to a certain extent, we don't have absolute control over the condition)

Those are what we would call gameplay mechanics. Forsaken don't have the negative aspects of undeath in gameplay but they do in lore. Third generation death knights are actually less powerful than second generation death knights... It's basically comparing soldiers to generals. Ergo, it wouldn't make sense that this third generation can "pick and choose" their strengths and weaknesses when that power wasn't given to their superiors. While they certainly have powers that can due similar (like using necromantic magic to heal themselves instead of relying on wholesome magics), they're more layered on top of their condition... the strengths and weaknesses of undeath are constant.

[Pandragon]

Or are they just brought back to life via necromantic magic to be living being again?

All Death Knights were killed then brought back into service of the Lich King. Arthas was the only "living" Death Knight.

[Icaras]

More alive than the Forsaken, less alive than everyone else.

This, basically.

[kynthrus]

Some of them are undead-- killed, reanimated.

Those that gave themselves willingly aren't traditionally undead (Think Arthas-- he never actually died, but he's as undead as it gets.)

Except for the part where he tore out his own heart.... He's pretty damn dead.

[Deleted]

They still have blood pumping through their veins. They are alive.

A corpse still has blood in it, nobody says a Deathknight Actually has a beating heart.

[Klingers]

4 pages so probably been covered... But if not.

The first era of Death Knights (Warcraft II era) were weird. They were the souls of dead orc warlocks, crammed into the bodies of dead human knights and given a truncheon containing the power of a dead orc necrolyte. Basically the soul from one dead orc, the powers of another dead orc and the body of a dead human.

The second era (around the time of Warcraft III) started with Arthas (who never died) and was a mix of primarily "living" fallen paladins and a few resurrected slain humans and high elves picked up along the way (Such as Thassarian and Koltira Deathweaver).

There's some ambiguous overlap, but if you could call it a third era, your player Death Knight is, yes, dead. All the Ebon Blade DKs pretty much were resurrected slain Argent Dawn heroes amassed as cannon fodder to bring out Tirion Fordring and end the Scarlets/Argents for good.

[Aquamonkey]

Corpsified living person vs a vivified corpse.

[Deleted]

Also, one thing I noticed no one's mentioned yet is that one scene where Instructor Razuvious and two necromancers are necro-rezzing corpses in Acherus and the related quest to slaughter an unworthy initiate. For those who need the refresher, Razuvious is selectively necro-rezzing corpses--presumably Argent Dawn--for absorbtion into the Scourge War Machine. Since it's not Arthas doing the rezzing it would appear the necro-rez is flawed since half the time the subject demonstrates either memory of pain or memory of free will. Said subjects are instantly granted their second death >.>;

The related quest has you killing one said person allowed to live for you to kill--likely to help rid you of whatever sense of morals you might still have (as is butchering civillians wasn't enough).

I did mentioned, although didn't described the event.

[Deleted]

Here is my take on Death knights.

Looking totally at Arthas generation and the Ebon blade I would certainly say that all evidence points to them being undead.

The curse of Frostmourne states that anybody who wields that sword would lose their soul to it. Upon claiming the sword I would say it claimed Arthas soul and ripped it from his body, leaving him for all intensive purposes as undead, the same goes for the other Knights of his generation who were all bound to their own cursed Runeblades in the same way.

The third generation (Ebon Blade) are different to the former in that they seemingly are not bound to a single Runeblade but rather can runeforge their essence into any new weapon, perhaps the Lich King saw dependence on a single weapon as a weakness his knights could no longer endure?

On the difference between Forsaken Undead and DK Undead, I would say it boils down to the same as the difference between a vampire and a zombie.

Forsaken were mindless zombies (quite literally) until they were freed, they had no free will of their own and were subject to decay, pretty much treated as expendable fodder for the LK until freed along with Sylvannas.

DKs on the other hand I see as more like vampires, they retained free will as champions and generals to lead the Scourge but they cannot disobey the command of the lich King's whispers inside their minds. They also do not decay. Much like a vampire they can use blood magic along with their lich-like frost magic and of course unholy necromantic magic.

A forsaken DK? Consider them twice cursed, going from zombie like mindless state to regaining free will to being slain again and risen to the higher state of undeath of a DK which doesn't undo the decay that his body already suffered.

[Aurabolt]

Death Knights are the Dark version of what Paladins are: Unholy Warriors who are also Skilled Necromancers. In the case of DKs they had all the knowledge of Necromancy given to them by the Lich King, which would lend credit to the art of Runeforging only DKs can utilize. Arthas was the first and greatest DK. After him the honor went to Alexandros Mograine, the original Ashbringer. Of course he went on to be succeeded by his son Darion, who would wield the corrupted Ashbringer until Light's Hope.

A DK's Runeblade doubles as a focus for especially when you were Necro-rezzing certain beings. Rememer the LK Opening Cinematic in which Arthas uses Forstmourne to Necro-rez Sindragosa. I assume Arthas perfected the art of making ghouls if DKs can use Army of the Dead to summon a swarm of Ghouls. What separates DKs from Forsaken is the Sylvanas-aligned Val'kyr can only raise humans into Forsaken. DKs don't appear to have that limitation.

[Deleted]

Death Knights are the Dark version of what Paladins are: Unholy Warriors who are also Skilled Necromancers. In the case of DKs they had all the knowledge of Necromancy given to them by the Lich King, which would lend credit to the art of Runeforging only DKs can utilize. Arthas was the first and greatest DK. After him the honor went to Alexandros Mograine, the original Ashbringer. Of course he went on to be succeeded by his son Darion, who would wield the corrupted Ashbringer until Light's Hope.

The first of the Second Generation.