Death Knights Neglected This Whole Time

[The Ogdru Jahad]

your problems... are everything that I LIKE about the class. It seems many disagree.

[Miko]

I hate plague strike. Really hate using it as frost.

[Smiegel]

Overall: I can't complain with where DKs are overall compared to when I started my DK in Cata (did not PvP in Cata). I would not be opposed to some additions/changes to the runeforge system, however just because they haven't been changed doesn't mean they aren't unique/good. Although I would love to not have to go to my DK home everytime I want to switch runes mid raid. I think the runic system is OK where it is, if they want to revamp it a bit I would welcome it.

PVE: All three specs are in a great spot imo, taking into account the upcoming changes to UH in 5.2. Yes sometimes I feel like my utility may lag behind other classes at times/encounters but then there is always that fight where AMZ, Gorefiend's, etc. is needed.

PVP: This is where most of my issues come in to play, mainly the costs and number of defensive Cds and utility/CC spells. To me it just seems outdated that some of our abilties still have certain costs given what they provide. For example one of our only major forms of CC, strangulate costs a blood rune (half of an obliterate/festering strike), is on a 2min cooldown and silences the target for 5 sec. I don't want to devolve this into comparing other cc abilties to other classes etc, etc because you can look them up yourself and see the disrcepancies. I will just say for what strang provides it is in most situations not worth the cost. Same goes for Icebound fortitude, having an rp cost on this is just outdated in my opinion.

Along those same lines the number of CC/Utility/Defensive abilities just seem to be lacking to me when compared to other classes overall (again not going to start naming/comparing abilities as I'm sure it's been done somewhere before).

Our damage is top tier so nothing to complain about there, for me though I would give up some damage to gain some Mobility/CC/Utility/Defense.

I'm still having a lot of fun PvPing for the first time on this char, these are just some observations I've made. Blizzard has stated that they don't like where instant CC is and changes are in place for some classes which will make us stronger anyway, so I'm just looking forward to that.

TLDR; Improvements and Quality of Life changes can be made for sure and would be welcome. Looking at all aspects of the game, DKs are in a pretty decent spot.

[fangless]

I think the only thing I can agree with in this post is Runeforges need to be just re-done.

As DPS, I've used the same runeforges since I first rolled a DK. Why aren't they just passive? There's no real reason to make it a skill you apply to a weapon if there's just no choice in it. Make them do interesting things like the talents, that aren't always DPS related. 15% strength is good, of course, but years later? It's ho hum.

[Tyranitar]

DKs need some good looking gear again. T15 looks like piled crap.
Well, the PvP set in MoP looks decent, but except that one the last set I like is T10, and that is old!

[NatePsy]

The only thing I want from the Devs for Death Knights is to have one of the Runeforges have the same icy effect as Frostmourne, that blue smoke styled enchant looks badass



Razorice looks similar but it's too thick and looks like extinguisher smoke. Also another thing I'd want from the developers would be more scourge/runic weapons, preferably sold by vendors inside Ebon Hold. I feel there's a lack of Runic swords. For a class that wields Runic Emblazoned weapons, there's a big lack of any aside from the Sword in ICC, DK 55-58 questline and that's probably it.

[Deleted]

The only thing I want from the Devs for Death Knights is to have one of the Runeforges have the same icy effect as Frostmourne, that blue smoke styled enchant looks badass



Razorice looks similar but it's too thick and looks like extinguisher smoke.

I'm still hoping for a cooldown that would transform our weapon into Frostmourne, like Holy Avenger does for Ashbringer.

[NatePsy]

I'm still hoping for a cooldown that would transform our weapon into Frostmourne, like Holy Avenger does for Ashbringer.

This too! I would be abusing the hell out of that Glyph on every critter/mob I see. Maybe it could have a chance to transform when Fallen Crusader procs or for Blood DK, a proc they have when using abilities (Not very knowledgeable in their buffs)

[IRunSoFarAway]

I appreciate all of the comments you guys have posted so far. I also would like to let you guys know here at MMO that I was banned on the official forums for a week for posting this thread and voicing my opinions.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4946244?page=1

Soul Reaper - What you guys say is true, SR is a dps increase but I don't think it is quite where it needs to be yet.

Mop Changes - Little to no changes is good for the "don't fix what isn't broken" people but when a new expansion comes I want to feel refreshed, otherwise why even buy the expansion.

You were banned for a week yet the thread isn't locked and you posted in it 2 hours ago, am I missing something?

In my opinion DK's are fine the way we are, the only thing they need to change is unholy, which they are trying to with 5.2. Just because you don't see as many changes as the other classes doesn't mean we're being ignored or something.

I agree with you on runeforging, I wish they'd add something new at some point rather than just using this one or these two and the rest just being useless. Imo the others should either be reworked or just removed.

And I also agree with you about the 3 lvl 90 talents, I was totally bummed out when they removed damage from all of them. I myself use remorseless winter and absolutely love it even if it does no damage(and is just hungering cold reworked).

As for a hero class, the only thing that really differentiates us from any other class anymore is starting at lvl 55, that's about it now.

Also, MoP is a new expansion, you say you want to feel refreshed and it doesn't sound like you are, yet it looks like you bought the expansion...why?

[LCDArcade]

You were banned for a week yet the thread isn't locked and you posted in it 2 hours ago, am I missing something?

I wrote an angry e-mail and they unbanned me basically admitting they did it for no reason. The thread isn't locked because it is a good thread.

[valliant13]

Reroll then, im happy that you are not developing this class. These are not issues

my only issue with DKs is frost still feels dated with this rune system. It worked flawlessly in 3.3.3 with GoD and no perma death runes...but runes regened as you used them not one at a time with a hope for a shitty proc. Unholy in 4.3 felt a LOT like frost in 3.3.3 in terms of rune generation and want that system back. Also the fact that they got rid of god but added rolling blood...which is essentially GoD for blood/UH Dks while frost gets nothing to keep our diseases going without effecting our main strike(assuming you are 2h). So yea..if a spec isnt aging right with the system that blizzard forced isnt an issue then...I don't really know what is.

Edit: Ok I lied I have one more issue, and it's that they didn't do ANYTHING to actually fix frost from cata to mop. Perma death runes is stupid...sorry if you dummies enjoy them but it was a band-aid fix they threw in 4.1 to make frost at least playable for the rest of the expansion. It should have been addressed and fixed going into mop but it wasn't which means they are satisfied with just throwing half-assed ideas out onto live servers without thinking why it was a problem and how to fix it in the first place.

[hasslehoof]

The only thing they need to add back is the good ol' Blood Tap. Nothing else needs changing. Dk is fine, l2p or reroll.

Runeforging needs changing? Why? It's fine, it's better then other enchants. Don't use the argument 'fun' because no other class gets 'fun' enchants.

[valliant13]

The only thing they need to add back is the good ol' Blood Tap. Nothing else needs changing. Dk is fine, l2p or reroll.

Runeforging needs changing? Why? It's fine, it's better then other enchants. Don't use the argument 'fun' because no other class gets 'fun' enchants.

I have no overall problem with the runeforges. I just hate that all we do is use 2-3 maybe 4 of the bunch in there. I dont even know any dw frosties that use cinderglacier actually so i'll say three. Also they still have nerubian carapace when dw tanking is dead....why is it still there? but if this was on the totem pole of problems it is so close to the bottom that i could honestly care less if it ever gets changed.

[Darsithis]

I hate plague strike. Really hate using it as frost.

The only time I hate it is when I mess up and use it while Outbreak or Unholy Blight are available or will be available before my Blood Plague wears off. Otherwise I'm fine with it being the occasional strike depending on mob makeup. It's not much different than Fire throwing out a Combustion on cooldown.

[Deleted]

"We take a look at an obliterate crit which is hitting for 300-400k..." Did stop reading right there..

[Raeion]

back in beta Soul repear used to be a ranged ability ! they even nerfed that
well the rune system is easy to fix, they can make some abilities not cost anything at all , like Protection warriors or Guardian bears, so those instant abilities will generate Runic power for the other abilities !

[Erishkigal]

I wrote an angry e-mail and they unbanned me basically admitting they did it for no reason. The thread isn't locked because it is a good thread.

Should really have posted it in the Damage Dealing forums, you don't get anywhere on the General Discussion forum and the devs don't read the DK class forum.

[Nangz]

I wrote an angry e-mail and they unbanned me basically admitting they did it for no reason. The thread isn't locked because it is a good thread.

That part about it being a good thread. I skimmed it and it seems to be the same as this one so i'll be concise.

Your entire premise about dks being neglected is entirely false and misguided. Half of the things you complained about have nothing to do with neglect but simply inability to properly analyze without exaggeration. Your personal gripes with death knights and blizzards neglect of YOUR issues do not reflect on blizzard's feedback of the death knight community. My opinion is no more important than yours and yet I like things like soul reaper, control undead, our rune system (bar blood tap changes) and the amount of change in MOP.

You seem to forget that warlocks got massive changes after 8 years of wow and you're expecting an overhaul after 4? Come on. The design team who created warlocks is hardly around anymore whereas the ones who created death knights still exist. Their opinions are still in play when it comes to what happens.

I facepalmed so hard when I read "so much for being a hero class" at the end of that thread. For someone with a youtube channel trying to foster a community this is the most idiotic statement i've ever read. I was unaware that hero classes need the highest amount of attention, the most changes, revamps every expansion, abilities useful in every situation all while catering to your opinions. I won't go into the definition of hero class because its a waste of my time. Google it.

Actually as I read this thread. The strangest thing is that I find people agreeing with outright lies! I even see your last post where you quite frankly, didn't read mine earlier in this thread or continue to spout the same stuff. Headache, guess i'll respond there too...

Edit:
Finally got around to watching your video. Ignoring the points that I already commented on. Here is some things I found.

You go into this discussion about how "everything costs runic power". This is false. Your examples of abilities that cost runic power are wrong. Neither strangulate or mind freeze cost runic power anymore ( strangulate has never costed RP). Conversion, Icebound fortitude, glyphed mind freeze and outbreak. In fact, the only abilities that cost RP are damage increasing abilities with 1 exception. Death Coil, Frost Strike, Rune Strike, Dancing Rune Weapon,Conversion, Dark Simulacrum, and Summon Gargoyle ( for now) along with the 2 abilities when glyphed. ( Does anyone glyph them??)

My belief has always been that due to the limiting natures of runes ( set recharge time, fixed types) RP should be a haven for more abilities but thats beside the point and again, opinion. Clearly this isn't blizzard's opinion. If it meant so much to me, I would have rerolled by now.


Why we didn't receive changes: The main reason you gave was because blizzard listened too much. I'm not sure exactly where this comes from other than from that one tweet which was poorly delivered by GC and insinuated alot. I challenge you to find a single post of people asking for warlock overhaul or shadowpriest overhaul. It didn't happen, and yet they changed them anyway. They don't change ONLY based on player feedback as that would be too slow. Again i'll echo what i've said before. Shadow priests and Warlocks have existed since vanilla. 8 years to our 4. Its a sheer numbers reason as to why they were overhauled first.

Control Undead: Yea its pretty crappy that we haven't been able to use it. However death knights have been asking for a long duration CC almost since release. It was the best way to do it without making us broken in cc. Its not like we're the only class with a situation CC. I'm glad we got it.

Soul Reaper: I do think the 5 second duration on the haste buff is too short. Overly nerfed. You echo the points about "hard hitting" and these are entirely false and exaggerated as stated above so I won't go into it much more. The key "niche" or nuance with soul reaper is its delay. No other class has an execute that can be used outside of execute range. Not only is this an interesting mechanic but it gives alot of skill in the hands of the player. There isn't much more satisfying of a feeling than soul reaper-ing a mage at 70% health, nuking him and watching him drop with a well timed soul reaper.

Talents: I think I echo'd this above but i'll go into more depth. Here are our abilities that are new. Also a short comment on Blood Tap. Blood tap is the optimal talent choice for most of the DK specs with the other options being really close. In most cases though, your choice really shouldn't matter very much. There are much easier ways to increase your dps than to relearn a new talent with such an impact on your resources.

Rolling Blood
Unholy Blight (name is the only thing in common with the wotlk version)
Plague Leech
Death Siphon
Asphyxiate
Conversion
Purgatory
Blood Tap ( again, only thing in common with earlier version is the name)
Total: 8

Now i'm going to go through each class to see exactly how much they had changed or added. As I did with DKs, these don't include level 90 talents which are 3 new talents for every single class.

Druids 13 ( holy shit thats alot!, number may be off, not too familiar)
Hunters 8
Mages 7
Paladins 9
Priests 9
Rogues 8
Shaman 9
Warlocks 10
Warriors 9

Maybe its below average. But its not the lowest, and its not so low that its worth raising a fuss over. Lets move on.

Your line "I don't care how useful anyone says our level 90 talents are in pvp or pve" i facepalm'ed again. I do think its a problem how our level 90 talents are the only one that does not increase our damage but they are by far not useless. Remorseless winter is probably the most important ability DKs can posses for challenge modes, its amazing on fights like will and feng heroic and a great pvp skill. The other 2 are more situation however I have already specced each one at least for one fight this tier and i'm not even half way through MV heroic.

Hero class: We start at 55, we get free ( amazing) weapon enchants, have only one race restriction, have a more indepth lore than ANY other class to date. Hero class is and I quote blizzard "It's also important to keep in mind that even though the death knight is a hero class, that doesn't mean it is more powerful than the other classes, just that it will offer a very different playing experience."

Do I feel like a hero class at level 90? I suppose not as much as I did while leveling back in Wotlk is that wrong? I don't think so.

Frost vs Unholy: Unholy's problems stem entirely from designed encounters that favor the aspects of frost that make it potent. ( High burst, good target switching etc). On a single target fight, you'll find they are nearly even, however you'll also note, there is not a single fight in the current tier that benefits unholy, that also benefits frost. There is a thread in the damage dealing forums of the official wow forums dedicated to this you should look up. It compares frost and unholy pretty nicely.

No changes since Wotlk: Unholy gained Dark Transformation, an additional dps cooldown, a new rotational ability in festering strike, soul reaper, talents that made us use a priority rather than the wotlk fixed rotation and an army that actually functions as a dps cooldown.

Frost gained almost equal footing between 2h and DW, removal of blood runes, soul reaper, a reason to pay attention to KM, and dw got an entirely new rotation since wotlk.

Blood got removal of rune cost on a bunch of core defensive cds, a DRW that functions as a damage reduction CD, and the biggest and best change since wotlk. The improvement of the best example of active mitigation ingame currently.


Runeforging: Its a tricky solution. Do we make it so that our runeforges need to be changed on a boss by boss basis? Personally I think yes, we can teleport to get it changed at will. They may not see it the same way. I disagree with your premise that enchanting our weapon, costing gold, wasting time, and otherwise is more fun. In fact i'd say its tedious. In cataclysm when transmog was introduced, I heard nothing but complaints from a rogue and paladin about how annoying landslide is to look at. They said it was like they had the same weapon for the entire expansion. I feel blessed that our weapons don't get covered by whatever design blizzard feels like implementing at the start of an expansion. My opinion though.

DK changes in 5.2. I'm not convinced that you are familiar enough with unholy to say the degree effectiveness that these changes have. However I do. I play unholy and here is my take on them.

Summon Gargoyle: Quality of life change that allows us to get cooldowns out on demand instead of having to pool. It removes one issue where 2 death coils would, in the future, become more effective in terms of damage than using gargoyle at all. In addition, it lowers our starting rampup time by allowing us 2 extra death coils to build shadow infusion stacks on our ghoul. Probably the biggest change. The plague damage lets it scale with mastery which is icing on the cake.

Plague strike applying both diseases: This is huge. Unholy had extreme problems with target switching that couldn't be pestilence'd to. Rune desyncing was the problem because we would use a frost and unholy rune to apply diseases, and be left with a floating blood rune until the runes recharged. This simply lets us change out one scourge strike for a plague strike to apply diseases. I can all but take icy touch off my bar for everything but aoe.

Icy Touch on reaping: This lets us dump 2 icy touches into a target so we can change them to death runes and blood boil. This is much easier than preplanning with festering strike and lets us change from an aoe rotation to a single target one without pre notice.

I do agree that frost will still be better than unholy, but thats part of the nature of the game. In the same way that combat beats assassination in a cleave situation. Specs benefit from different mechanics differently than others.

The GC tweet. I actually got confused with my tweets in my original response. Not only did you completely misinterpret the tweet, but you read words that weren't even there.

Lets break it down. "its not all about Dks specifically, its just a good example of giving players exactly what they want".
He specifically says that this is not about dks specifically. ( meaning it applies to all classes.) But ignoring feedback means you can't give them exactly what they want.

The wotlk beta, as you claim you were in, was the best example of blizzard listening too much. The community told blizzard that they would not bring death knights to their raid groups, use them in their arena teams or bg groups because they already had rosters. Gullible as blizzard was, they beleived it. They gave us unique and overpowered utility, ( unholy, frost and blood auras) higher damage than any other class and the most versatility of any class. ( Tank and dps in any spec with any weapons? What could go wrong!). Hindsight is 20/20 as even with monks not being overpowered now, they are still brought to raids proving once and for all that this was an issue over-exaggerated by top guilds and beta testers.

I see nothing in that quote about ignoring DKs in the future and I see nothing about "developing how he wants to go". You ask what harm would come from listening to the players. I tell you that we already have differing opinions on alot of things. Are we supposed to have the community vote on Player A's ideas vs Player B's? Unreasonable. An example of a broken thing? How about the 15% passive move increase that unholy dks brought at the start of wotlk? Even if your dk sat in the corner and didn't' die, he was more useful than any one player in the raid. PERIOD. The fact that our damage was amazing and the other specs brought buffs nearly as good is just more example.

I think this post is probably wrong enough. Not sure if you will even read it since you didn't' read my first one but anyway. Cheers.

[Deleted]

Blood tap is the best thing that happened to the class since cataclysm! (And it's amaaaaaaaaaaaazing!)

[Deleted]

dk's are fine the runeforging can have some better graphics or maybe some changes IDK actually i like playing my dk as it is