Page 10 of 41 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
11
12
20
... LastLast
  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    The majority of the Raids are 10M. Check.

    The majority of the playerbase complains for any reason without reason. Check.

    The majority of the playerbase that Raids, does so in 10M. Check

    Ergo the majority of the Raid complaints are from 10M raiders, for any reason, without reason.

    Higher Ilvl for 25s (10s cry)
    More drops for 25s (10s cry)
    1/2 Upgraded gear (10s cry)

    See a pattern? yeah, it's called Any Buff to your mode is a Nerf to my mode.

    10M players aren't willing to give anything up. The sooner Blizzard sees thru that, the sooner they'll be able to think of something disregarding the idiotic bantering of how 10M always loses even though it's winning.
    25's complaining that 10's are easier. Check
    Take your whine somewhere else

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    My argument is that people with decent skill are experience find 25 man harder then 10, is a joke? A bigger joke then 2 10 man players afraid they will get less for less effort?



    10 mans are easier and they will always will be. 25 are hurting, because people like you choose to ignore this.
    Lol, or people like you choose to blindly follow the "25s are for us elite playerz, you are all bad" idea, which is absurd. The only thing 'consistently' more difficult about 25s is that it's harder to find the people. Other than that it goes back and forth. If you even try to deny that you need to step back and rethink your outlook on this. Half the fights this tier were more difficult on 10 man. I could get into the reasoning behind that, but I'm pretty sure your tiny brain would explode from all the sense I'd be making, which is obviously something you aren't used to.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 06:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    Meh, I personally don't feel there is any need to further incentivize a format that doesn't seem popular enough to stand on its own merit. But, since this is a speculation thread, let's look at the loot tables and why I would not be betting on higher iLvL as the 25m perk.

    Depending on your raid format, there is the following:
    You have LFR that already gives: 476/483
    You have normal that gives: 489/496
    You have heroic that gives: 502/509

    There is a 7 iLvL bump from MSV to HoF/ToES, but there is a 13 iLvL bump from LFR to Normal and Normal to Heroic.

    If you added another 13 iLvL bump to account for a 10m vs 25m, then you would wind up with:
    LFR: 476/483
    10N: 489/496
    10H/25N: 502/509
    25H: 515/522

    With that said, in order for 25's to fairly offer higher iLvL than their 10m counterparts, then they have to be deliberately made harder than 10m and not just in terms of the logistics involved.

    Now, while there are undoubtedly many pro-25 people out there ready to go "HURR BUT 10M ARE ALREADY EASIER THAN 25M LOL!" there are just as many others that would argue that while there are pros and cons to both during the actual raids making certain fights easier on one or the other, the only thing that can always be said that is much harder on 25m is what happens before you even set foot into the raid:
    The logistics of herding 25 cats instead of 10

    But as that is a burden on the raid leaders/officers, and not the rank and file people that just log on in time to raid, the only way to fairly reward everyone with higher iLvL is to make the actual fights legitimately and clearly more difficult on 25's compared to 10's.

    But, that is not how Blizz has been approaching the two raid formats ever since 4.0, and while they can always revert a design philosophy if deemed necessary, it just seems strange they would abandon it all and revert back to Wrath era balancing just to preserve 25m like it some kind of sacred cow.

    So, naw, I don't see a flat higher iLvL from 25's unless they completely rebalance 25m vs 10m modes.
    ^ What this guy said.

  3. #183
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    178
    Ppl are doing 10mans, only because they will allways be bit easier and its so much harder to gather 25 skilled ppl than 10. Btw i raid both of them, mostly 25mans, but during off-raid raids we are doing 10mans. So i pretty much know diffrence between them.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    As i already said. I did 3 weeks of 25 man raiding at the start of this Tier. You are plain wrong. The 3 combat resses don't mean shit when the platforms for everything are crowded with people trying to avoid AoE. Resto Shaman with mastery are worthless in 25 man since people are not stacked up. Bosses like Windlord and the Vizier are a nightmare.

    Most of the people that tried going 25 man were good as well. Most of us are breezing through 10 man now with 7-8 heroic kills. I got the Will of the Emperor cutting edge over 2 weeks ago. 10 man are easy mode.
    try killing the boss with an average ilvl of 475, but ehy gratz you are able to outgear the FIRST Instance now

    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    The fight Paragon killed with 3 healers and 2 tanks when every other 10 man guild said it was impossible with a 2 tank 2 healer setup? The same fight Paragon said had an "easy enrage timer"?

    I'm not going to say all 10s are easier, they are not but almost all of the time the enrage is not the difficult thing about 10 mans.
    The Fight where Paragon had an average ilvl of 485 when every other 10 man guild maybe had 470-475. Yeah it does make a HUGE difference
    Last edited by ripslyme; 2013-01-02 at 06:22 PM.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    LOL what kinda setup is that? 10man normally uses 2/3/5. 25man normally uses 2/6/17. The number of bosses requiring a different setup than that is very tiny.
    Healers are very easy to place into raids, as their ratio is always higher compared to 5man in any raid size.
    I'm rather surprised he used this argument against 25m--it's actually the chief reason we should support 25m. Getting more dps into a raid is absolutely the right thing to do. Blizzard should probably make 6m: 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 dsp. Qs would go down. However, now i'm also engaging in derailing the thread...

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    Remove it entirely please! Go to a single raid size and focus all your raid development time on making excellent bosses, tuned for a single raid size, rather than re-tuning for multiple raid sizes as well as difficulties.

    Ideally I'd love to go to 15 man raids, which scales up perfectly from 5 mans (1 tank 1 healer 3 DPS - 3 tanks 3 healers 9 DPS), but that probably won't happen. So just remove 25 mans and let's all go 10 man.

    Blizzard are just giving themselves way too much work trying to cater to a very, VERY tiny section of the playerbase. I mean, hell, the total number of raiders is a tiny, insignificant amount as it is... the number of 25 man raiders is even smaller.
    You won't likely see 3-tank fights.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Resto Shaman with mastery are worthless in 25 man since people are not stacked up.

    Mastery: Deep Healing
    Requires Shaman (Restoration)
    Requires level 80
    Increases the potency of your healing spells by up to 24%, based on the current health level of your target (lower health targets are healed for more).

    What the fuck this has anything to do with the raid composition? In reality, shaman are much much better in 25 men, healing rain says hi.



    Most of the people that tried going 25 man were good as well. Most of us are breezing through 10 man now with 7-8 heroic kills. I got the Will of the Emperor cutting edge over 2 weeks ago.
    Will of the emperor is a fucking joke in 25. You can have 5 mages spamming ring of frost and forget rage's existence.

    10 man are easy mode.
    No.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 07:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    The fight Paragon killed with 3 healers and 2 tanks when every other 10 man guild said it was impossible with a 2 tank 2 healer setup? The same fight Paragon said had an "easy enrage timer"?

    I'm not going to say all 10s are easier, they are not but almost all of the time the enrage is not the difficult thing about 10 mans.
    Paragon had been doing 25 normal all this tier, showing in fact, that the more loot in 25 mode means that 10 men can't catch up with the raiding race.

  8. #188
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Thunder Bluff
    Posts
    361
    The only thing I can really think of right now would be for it to drop more loot, but that wouldn't really be to controversial.

    25m drops more gold, more points, bags-o-stuff ala LFR (but with better stuff then just gold in them). Not really to controversial either (coming from my current 10 man perspective)

    The loot being higher ilev (sort of like 1/2 upgrade or something), same really. Not to controversial. Totally doable. Question then ofcause is what are the 25m raiders going to do with all their spare valor points.

    It would be much higher ilev (sort of like a possible /3 or /4 upgrade and possibly start at /2 ), that would be controversial I think.

    Removing the 10m lockout for 25m. I dont really know how this would work but I guess that would be controversial to. Not for the 25m but for the 10m people that would then be "forced" to band together with other 10's and alts to do them; "forced" since not actually forced but it would be done since nobody wants to waste possible upgrades/loot. This would be a slight curse for the 25m people then if they have to do both. It won't really affect me as a 10:er tho so I don't really care that much.

    Removal of 25m? Nah, it would be controversial. No doubt about that. I just dont see it; sure they removed 40m so it's not unheard of. Possibly I would prefer it then if they all just made it 15man across the board. One size fits all, one size to design for instead of two.

    Some unique only drop in 25m items; could be controversial even if its just some pure vanity item.

    25m dropping less/elder charms; possible. Wouldn't really be to controversial tho in my mind. It's not like they are hard or annoying to gather. Would save some time not having to do dailies etc but it eventually turns into a pointless "extra".

    Higher (weekly) VP cap for 25m vs 10m; that would be controversial I think.

    Shorter reset cycle (twice per week instead of once per week), could work. Becomes more or less the same as just dropping more loot tho except you have to play more.

  9. #189
    Warchief theWocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    2,088
    Ditching of 25 mans and making 20 mans?
    ★ twitter @WockyCC ★ blog wockycc.tumblr.comyou-tube: Wocky GAMING
    Recent Video ★ ENTER the Wocky - an introduction
    Partner/Member of the CURSE "Union for Gamers" YouTube Gaming Network | ★ Wocky's Computer Specs: HERE
    Wocky "unplugged" YouTube (Real Life)Steam Games List"


  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    25's complaining that 10's are easier. Check
    Take your whine somewhere else
    Not once did I say that, I want to improve 25s, I'm not cockfighting to see which mode is harder, or reading is hard for you?

    Or is it that you believe improving 25 is offensive because it's fine the way it is, have you seen how 10M guilds are 5 to 1 ?

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    The majority of the Raids are 10M. Check.

    The majority of the playerbase complains for any reason without reason. Check.

    The majority of the playerbase that Raids, does so in 10M. Check

    Ergo the majority of the Raid complaints are from 10M raiders, for any reason, without reason.

    Higher Ilvl for 25s (10s cry)
    More drops for 25s (10s cry)
    1/2 Upgraded gear (10s cry)

    See a pattern? yeah, it's called Any Buff to your mode is a Nerf to my mode.

    10M players aren't willing to give anything up. The sooner Blizzard sees thru that, the sooner they'll be able to think of something disregarding the idiotic bantering of how 10M always loses even though it's winning.
    That goes both ways though. It is just the reverse of the complaints that came from 25-man raiders when the Cata changes were first announced. A lot of people said that participation in 25s would plummet almost to non-existence if both formats shared loot and lockouts. At the time, they were told that they were wrong or overreacting. A little more than 2 years later and exactly what was predicted has come about.

    Now, the people who raid 10s are worried that Blizzard will overcorrect and we will end up in a situation just like WotLK, where 10s were considered an inferior format in pretty much every possible measurement, and people will feel forced to run 25s. And, just like the 25-man raiders before Cata, they are being told they are wrong or are overreacting. When really they aren't, just like the 25-man raiders weren't. Any change that deals with character power, if significant enough to have any effect at all, would cause a drastic shift back to 25s, as they would now be considered required in order to maximize your character's potential.
    Last edited by Gurbz; 2013-01-02 at 06:33 PM.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  12. #192
    25s have alrdy easier bosses and more loot per raider. Why should they get something more?

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Isopahajuho View Post
    Why should they get something more?
    Blizzard want more people raiding 25 mans.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    Blizzard want more people raiding 25 mans.
    Yeah, why they want it's still unknown since only 0,01 of the subs want to raid in 25 mode.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    Will of the emperor is a fucking joke in 25. You can have 5 mages spamming ring of frost and forget rage's existence.
    no that was fixed. 10man emperor is hilariously easy.

    done both on heroic 10man was just lol, while 25man is chaos with double the adds and 15 more people, so much more to coordinate.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 06:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Isopahajuho View Post
    25s have alrdy easier bosses and more loot per raider. Why should they get something more?
    opinion =/= fact sry.

  16. #196
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois
    Posts
    1,857
    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    Yeah, why they want it's still unknown since only 0,01 of the subs want to raid in 25 mode.
    0.01

    =-)

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Isopahajuho View Post
    25s have alrdy easier bosses and more loot per raider. Why should they get something more?
    Wow, what a great argument. Definitely can't poke any holes in this one.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Blizzard evidently do considering the shift in MoP is more towards the "focussed" raiding scene as opposed to the "casual" raiding scene. Believe me, these changes will be benefiting 25 man. Awaiting the tears from 10 man guilds already. Is this a late Christmas present from daddy Blizzard?
    MoP has more casual content than Cataclysm and WotlK combined... what are you talking about?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 07:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    0.01

    =-)
    Only in USA




  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    0.01

    =-)
    I'm italian, in most of europe we use 0, and 1.000

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Gsara View Post
    I dont think higher ilvl is going to happen, Blizzard will be shooting themselves in the foot if they do that. I have a feeling its going to be something like 25 man only special mounts, achievements, etc.
    That is not really controversial (though of course the guy who said players would argue about the grass changing color in Loch Modan was right).

    A bit controversial would be removing the lockout, period, and doing nothing but perhaps adding achievements to the 25m raids. That would give the "officer sorts" the reason to do 25m (gear faster) while sticking to 10m (for progression). It's hard to imagine they want us to burn out and gear faster, though. Probably they'd need to reduce the drops in 25m if they did this.

    Really controversial would be i-levels to which they said no. Destroying 25m would be impossibly controversial. Buffing i-level and boss strength for 25, would perhaps not destroy 10m, would probably not be just a "bit controversial". It also rather defeats the best part of 25m: that you can take weaker players just to fill in a slot.

    Here's a guess: All loot changed to LFR style. You have a chance at 10m loot and a chance at 25m loot--clearly the chances of getting loot in 25m are higher. You can't trade loot. Charms can only use them once per boss/week.

    It's a great way to get weaker players back in to 25m since the "officer types" will be willing to build the raids just to get extra shots at loot over the course of a raid tier. I can't speak to it myself but I think the hardmode folks would be OK with this: it intensifies their cycle but shortens it. More raiding in the short run, but the farming will be done sooner.

    And you'll still get geared fine if you don't do this.

    More to the point, it would bring back Monday night 25m puggin' for a lot of folks. Why not try for a second chance at your trinket?

    Edited because I made my example as confusing as I was able--now it's merely unclear.
    Last edited by Demeia; 2013-01-02 at 07:33 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •