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  1. #221
    What if the loot from 25m had and increased Ilvl,with slightly increased difficulty BUT it was only higher Ilvl while in a 25m raid and if you did 10m the gear would scale down to the Ilvl and difficulty raids currently are. It could be done just like challenge modes.

    This way there is more of an incentive to 25m raids and no one would need to run 25m to get the best loot because it would scale differently on 10m anyway

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Soloz View Post
    What if the loot from 25m had and increased Ilvl,with slightly increased difficulty BUT it was only higher Ilvl while in a 25m raid and if you did 10m the gear would scale down to the Ilvl and difficulty raids currently are. It could be done just like challenge modes.

    This way there is more of an incentive to 25m raids and no one would need to run 25m to get the best loot because it would scale differently on 10m anyway
    Please explain the incentive to do harder content for better gear that you can only use in that harder content area. Basically what that is doing is making 25 mans do even harder content for less of a reward outside 25 man raiding.

  3. #223
    I only raid 25 man so getting rid of it would be the end of wow for me. I personally enjoy raiding with more players even if that means we have to carry 1-2. Maybe my 25man raid is a bit odd but I feel like it is a very tight nit group and at times can feel as 'close' as a 10man but that's from the amount of time we've all been raiding with each other. I don't want to see the raid style I prefer go away just because some people don't like it or think it's pointless (I could -very- easily say the same thing to a 10man raider).

    Possible solution for 25man:

    Allow a boss kill to drop one of the BOE items from the trash (excluding patterns) or an increased possibility to do so. The trash loot drop rate is already kind of bad at the moment and when you have 3-4+ people complaining about wanting their bracers and/or trinket that finally dropped after months of work (and you've only ever seen that item once) can get a bit intense.

  4. #224
    Oh, hey look. It became a 10 vs 25 debate!

    On topic, however, perhaps they are considering a way to allow guilds to "merge" where they become, I don't know...allies? Where both (or several, if they allow it) guilds keep their hierarchy independent of the other involved guilds, but they count toward guild achievements, etc. There could be a shared "Guild alliance chat" for the guilds who are linked that way, so it would be really easy to put together larger runs, and you'd essentially have a shared officer pool. So, rather than having to promote more officers in your guild, you now have the officers of other guilds to coordinate with for making your larger raids, should you choose...

    I can see there being controversy in this, though I don't expect it to be what they are going to propose. For me, personally, I would really like to see this implemented since I have a ton of friends in other guilds who have raided with us at one point or another and we already have a de facto alliance whereby we regularly grab people to fill empty roster slots from week to week. We are, by most definitions, a pretty casual 10 man guild with no desire to raid 25 man, we don't want to raid more than 2 days a week and we are pretty flexible with people and their personal lives which means there are times when we don't raid because we just can't fill the roster. But when we can, we pull from other guilds and people off our friends list to go anyways, which is not ideal since the synergy isn't always there, etc.

    Anyways, that's just a thought since it would do very little to disrupt existing guilds, allows for a slightly easier "recruitment" process since you can essentially recruit an entire guild roster without forcing people to join the other guild and breaking up an existing guild. You could turn off the alliance chat (just like you might with general or trade chat) if you wanted to and just remain in whichever guild you already belong to, so nothing there really would change. This would actually convey a ton of benefits with very little risk to all involved. I have been a part of guild mergers, guild splintering, guild alliances, just about everything you can think of, and the alliance really can work, so adding actual perks to it, like those I suggested could really help make it more smooth!
    I can teach you how to play, but I can't fix stupid.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by katta View Post
    25 mans are dying because when they get to a boss thats difficult because a few players are screwing up instead of having to keep working on it to progress 10 of them can drop down to 10 mans and kill the boss and then why would they want to go back.

    I agree though, I dont think the answer is making 25 mans easier. I dont think anyone that raids 25 man actually wants that.
    Basically this. There is now a "no-penalty" option for dealing with window-lickers in 25s: drop to 10 on the last day of progression and kill it with good people. Sadly, our 25m group is only 4-5/16HC, while our 10man is 8/16, for this reason. However, most all of us genuinely enjoy the atmosphere of 25s; even if some people aren't the best players, we are still friends and enjoy the company and voice-comm and community feel, which is lost a bit in 10mans.

    Maybe there is some other option we've not thought of. Something like D3 scaling...

    25m encounters can now be run with as few as 20 people. Adding in an additional person will increase the hp/dmg by a set %. This would allow for "25" progress even if there were a few MIA raiders. Obviously, adding in a healer or a dps would have to change the increased variable differently, and I could see this being a slippery slope of exploitation, but it could also be a great option to have/use.

    "If a friend is not present at time of raid, one will be provided for you".
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  6. #226
    I am guessing extra achievments/extra Valor points from the bosses. Nothing game-breaking, but will cause whining for sure.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    how is making the harder format 'casual mode' in any way helpful? 25s are always going to be harder from a sheer logistical standpoint ( that includes nerd wrangling, spacial requirements, add micro managment, damage requirements)

    25s are dying because 25s raiders are not rewarded nearly enough for their hard work compared to the 10 man raiders.
    A) It is not "the harder format." Anyone with half a brain can see some fights are harder on 10 man, some are harder on 25. 10 man will always be easier when you farm 25s for awhile and feed loot to 10 people (like Paragon did) or when you normally run 25s and then drop to do 10s, due to the RNG of loot. Someone once did a statistical analysis of gearing for 10 mans, and found that it took a 10 man raider (not having gear funneled to them thru 25 man) on average 80% longer to reach BiS than a 25 man raider.

    B) Being logistically and organizationally more difficult in 25 isn't a testament to the skill of the group or the difficulty of the encounter.

    C) 25 man heroics with 25 good players who make no mistakes should currently be on equal footing with 10 man heroics who make no mistakes. It's just that the likelihood of someone fucking up in 25 man is higher.

    D) Like I said, the only harder requirement mechanics-wise in 25 man is "spreading out to not chain damage." Conversely, it is much harder in 10 man to cover lots of space when you need to: I was doing 10 man heroic progression during Firelands, and, as our group's hunter, I had to solo Beth'tilac's spiderlings by myself. I like to think I'm decent at my class, so we did it relatively quickly, but I know tons of guilds who were stuck on that fight just because their hunter wasn't good. On H-Blackhorn, everyone had to soak barrages, which, believe it or not, hit for the same amount in 10 and 25 (I was incredulous when I heard that, and checked just to make sure) and put the same debuff on, except the chances of a 10 man raider having to soak 2 in a row were much higher. The "spatial requirements" issue cuts both ways. Harder on fights like H-Ragnaros for 25 man, easier on H-Deathwing (did you know in 10 man you couldn't afford to have more than 1 person be hit by a Crush? Whereas 25s just piled in 3 groups and let the crush do what it wanted? All pre-nerf, of course). I sleep through 25 man heroic progression now, because I'm a hunter and no one expects anything of me.

    E) Damage requirements are tighter on 25 man specifically because you can have more than half your raid tunneling the boss. In 25 man H-Garalon you can just sit there and DPS. In 10 man, *everyone* has to pheremone kite. *Everyone*. Remember the H-Ultraxion cockblock of 25 man? Even though you required 5 people outside, the same in proportion to 10 man's 2, the first kills all had 7+ staying outside each turn, under raid CDs to live through the Hour. That simply isn't possible in 10 man. You can't stack enough CDs.

    F) If you have to nerd wrangle and micro manage everyone in your 25 man raid, then that's a problem with your raid members not taking personal responsibility and, you know, being an adult. That's not an indication of the difficulty of 25 man either.

    I'm saying it now: make 10 mans the progression path, push people into 25s as the casual option (and that's really a misnomer for what I'm envisioning H-25 man to be, but there you have it), and it solves this problem. The logistical problems of 25 man are counterweighted by the easier difficulty, the logistical ease of 10 man is counterweighted by its balls-deep difficulty.

  8. #228
    I have raided both formats, and 25mans feels more epic. The encounters have more adds more mechanics, more everything and it feels more epic. I am currently raiding in a 10 man guild that is deep into heroics. I left my 25man guild that i was in for almost 2 yrs. We lost so many members that wanted to raid 10s because heroic content was so much easier. I have raided everything heroic 10s and 25s and 10s is easier dont care what you 10 man raiders say. Heroic rag 10 harder than 25, nope. Heroic spine 10 harder than 25, nope. My point is the fights that matter that are the hardest ones are always easier on 10s. I read a comment that someone said 25man raids are balanced around 15 people. Notsure where you got this from but it's untrue. If you want the game to truly feel epic again then you will want 25man raiding to become dominant again. If you dont have a good enough computer, then stop buying cigs and beer, or get a job, if wow is something you are pationate about.

    I don't care what they do to ilevel or rewards but 25man needs to come back. I was on malganis for yrs and 25man raidiing is dieing there, what chance do low pop servers have. Right now it is not a choice for some servers, so stop saying it is. 10 man is mandatory, and that needs to change.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkazam View Post
    Well yeah. Why not ? If your 25.. its harder so you deserve better loots. What wrong with that ?
    It's pretty much common knowledge that 25mans are easier but harder to organize.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    10man only seems easier because you dont have to carry dead weight
    This is a large part of it. For everyone that isn't at the cutting edge of progression, the simple fact is that there will be a variance between your best and worst players. The best guilds in the world can be 10 or 25 and they'll still be full of the top 1% of raiders from top to bottom of the roster, but a mid range guild can end up with 5, maybe even 10 weak slots in their 25 man roster. Any mid range guild that cuts down to their 10 best players will progress faster in 10s than they do in 25s.

    There are also other things that make 10s easier just due to the nature of mechanics - anything that requires spacing is easier on 10 since they can achieve equal spacing in less space. All raiders screw up sometimes, regardless of how good they are. If you have a group of raiders where any individual only has a 1% chance of screwing up, then in a 10 man raid you have a net chance of roughly 91% not to screw up. In a 25 man group with 25 raiders who only screw up 1% of the time each attempt only has a 78% chance of avoiding a screw up. That's with exactly even skill level between all members of the raid in 25 and 10. Anything that requires coordination is easier in 10 (on average) since there's that fewer people to coordinate.

    Add the fact that you can trim the chaff going from 25 to 10 and it's no wonder 10s seem easier on average. There will be exceptions - 10 man tuning is far more vulnerable to inbalances than 25 since with fewer people each has less room for individual variance. And losing a player is felt more in 10 than 25, especially for those not doing cutting edge.

  11. #231
    well.. it's pretty obvious - 25 man raids will now drop moose mounts.. The ones that GC primised like 2 Blizzcons ago..
    Or they'll just flat out remove 25 man raids ;P

    well it has to be really controversial :P
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  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    It's pretty much common knowledge that 25mans are easier but harder to organize.
    And what would be hard to realize that this could change in the next patch/expac/whenever. I hate when people say higher iLevels would force someone to raid something they didnt want to. If you want to raid 10 man, what would you need 25 man gear for? Shit is silly

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherb View Post
    And what would be hard to realize that this could change in the next patch/expac/whenever. I hate when people say higher iLevels would force someone to raid something they didnt want to. If you want to raid 10 man, what would you need 25 man gear for? Shit is silly

    If you want to raid 25 man why would you need to have higher Ilevel gear than 10 man? Key wors is you "want" to raid 25 man so what other incentive do you need other than you prefer 25 man > 10... anything else is just silly!

    See how that argument works really easy both ways!

  14. #234
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    Yet again.
    Just WHY ALWAYS on ANY FORUM you see this kind of thread...
    Srsly, stop complaining.
    You want 25? Gather it!
    Instead of typing tons of shit like "DUH, 25 IS MORE EPIC GO RAID UR STINKIN 10 SLACKER!"
    Just sick of it.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodfire View Post
    You want 25? Gather it!
    Getting 25 people together for a raid takes much more effort than getting 10, that's why so many more people are raiding 10s.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    If you want to raid 25 man why would you need to have higher Ilevel gear than 10 man? Key wors is you "want" to raid 25 man so what other incentive do you need other than you prefer 25 man > 10... anything else is just silly!

    See how that argument works really easy both ways!
    Good point. Also, what Blizzard has pointed out, ad nauseum, is that if they make the ilevel higher in one vs the other, with the relative difficulty being the same (as opposed to normal vs heroic) people will feel that they NEED to do the one that grants the higher ilevel. It's just a quirk with people who play this game and the evidence bears this out. I HATED 25 man raiding back in wotlk, but I felt that I had to do it in order to obtain the better gear. Why did I need the better gear, when I would have rather done 10 mans? Because whether I ever actually need it or not, I STRIVE to obtain the best gear so that I can attempt the hardest content. I may never clear heroic content when it's considered current, but I'd at least like to think that it's what I'm progressing toward. And ultimately gear aids in that endeavor. So I will always try to get the best gear I can and if that means holding my nose to dip into 25 mans because that's where I get the higher ilevel, then I will probably do that. Although, at this point in the game, if this were the decision that Blizzard decided to make (going back to higher ilevel in 25 mans,) I would probably hang up the gloves and call it good. That's not a threat or anything, but I really do not like 25 mans THAT much.
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  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    Getting 25 people together for a raid takes much more effort than getting 10, that's why so many more people are raiding 10s.
    Smb who really wants to raid 25 will gather 25 instead of complaining and whining smb except himself.
    And I agree, the only thing about 25s is about human resources. Although sometimes it requires less effort (2 or 3 ppl in 25s probably are slacking or just facerolling most of the time) on bosses.
    In 10s it requires mostly NO mistakes at all. In 25s, you can make two or three, but it won't be crucial.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    They can't make 25 man too attractive now, or a lot of players will be very upset. It's easy to go from 25 to 10, but from 10 to 25 is a nearly impossible task, especially if half the 10 man guilds are trying to do so all at the same time.
    If half of the 10 man guilds are lets assume this:

    A Server has 3 - 25 man guilds and 40 - 10 man guilds, half are bumping to 10 mans, 2 guilds will merge which wont be a huge problem, only a few extra recruits would be needed assuming guilds are running at a 12 man roster, something will happen, no matter what.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by kojinshugi View Post
    A major problem in Wrath was that it wasn't just an ilevel difference, the gear was completely different except for tier. 10 man ICC melee trinkets were garbage. Deathbringer's Will was 25-man only.



    It's not a non-argument. Individual raiders don't make those decisions. Guild leaders make those decisions. Right now it's possible to get BiS gear in a 10-man guild. If you remove that, you're forcing people who don't like the 25M format but who care about maximizing their output, to do 25M.

    I don't like playing with 3-5 keyboard turners doing 50% of my DPS. I prefer playing with 9 competent people. So sue me.
    I agree with you, but it's still a non-argument that Blizzard is forcing something. They aren't, the guild leader is. Now, I agree with you that it shouldn't be completely different gear, like your ICC trinket example. That's silly.

    But the concept of a BiS 10 man and a BiS 25 man still being different doesn't seem like a problem to me. If you're doing 10 man, the gear from 10 man would be a BiS for your progression path. Yes, a 25 man drop would be better, but it's not a requirement.

    The mentality that players must maximize to the point of having the BiS everything in every slot no matter the cost and so the game should be redesigned so every progression path offers BiS gear is excessive.

    LFR is a progression path. You can get the best gear for LFR through LFR.
    10 man is a progression path. You can get BiS gear for 10 man raiding from 10 man raids.
    25 man is a progression path. you can get BiS gear for 25 man raiding from 25 man raids.

    That's a perfectly acceptable model and there's nothing about it that should force 10 man raiders to do 25 man raiding against their will.
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  20. #240
    25 man raids are gone.

    That's my guess, anyway.

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