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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Saft View Post
    There never was a problem in wotlk with the ilvl difference the problem was 25m all the sweet items while 10m got the leftover shit, toc and icc are perfect examples.
    If higher ilvl from 25m is what Blizzard is planning I will welcome the chance.
    actually it did cause problems it caused stat inflation
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  2. #262
    Mechagnome beardedcandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moohorn View Post
    - More gear drops per person
    - More battle resses
    - Less personal accountability per person

    The only (and admittedly big) drawback to 25 man raiding is gathering the people. Seeing as how groups are already able to do so, I don't really see why they need anything else to make it easier / more attractive.
    I don't think this holds. you are right that there is "less personal accountability per person" in farmed content, but on progression fights where maximum throughput has to be sustained for X amount of time and you can't afford to lose a single person, personal responsibility actually becomes greater than in a 10 man because 1 mistake impacts far more people.

    what makes a larger raid harder is that there is actually a greater penalty for individual mistakes when content is actually hard. you can't reduce it down to the fact that 1 person is only 4% of a raid group as opposed to 10%. your argument only makes sense for EASY content.

  3. #263
    talked to Daxx yesterday and they are doing 40m LFR only. no more pre making raids.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Adzy View Post
    I think its quite obvious about the type of things its not going to be :

    • Higher Item Level(s)
    • Removing the Shared Lockout
    • 15man Raid Size

    Higher Item Levels and Removing the Shared Lockout (between 10 and 25) just causes people to feel that it is required to run both if they want to play competitively (which alot of people do).
    15man Raid Size will just generally annoy everyone. 10man guilds will have to recruit more players. 25man guilds will have to lose players.

    I personally hope that the difference is something more "appealing" rather than mandatory. But also not something gimmicky like crappy Bags which give Flasks / Potions.

    I think to begin with they should try and improve some of the Game's Interface.
    For example, the In-Game Calender could do with improving. Being able to select role(s) when signing up is one small step forward to helping Raid Leaders and Officers with organizing raids.
    Not just for current content either. The option to invite RealID friends through the In-Game Calender to an event.

    Other than organizing raids, officers also have issues with recruiting players for 25man. Sometimes this means having to search on different realms for new decent recruits, however not everyone can afford to Realm Transfer willy-nilly. I think it would be nice to allow players to raid content cross-realm (currently you cannot raid current content cross-realm. I feel this should be removed).
    The thing that has the most chance to happen is removing the shared lockout and increasing ilvl. 100% sure the ilvl WILL get boosted for 25m.
    ----

    WoD Launch date on 28/10 OR 11/11 OR 18/11. Updated on 01/08/2014.

    ----

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    The thing that has the most chance to happen is removing the shared lockout and increasing ilvl. 100% sure the ilvl WILL get boosted for 25m.
    it wont blizzard repeatedly states it doesnt want to do that so whatever it is it isnt higher ilvls
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  6. #266
    Inb4 : they do nothing

  7. #267
    They should add more content to raids if 25 people enter. More valor, more loot, more incentive
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    it's pretty hard to find a good girl in the sea of whores that is my country, brazil.

  8. #268
    Scarab Lord Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sxefluff View Post
    They should add more content to raids if 25 people enter. More valor, more loot, more incentive
    There already is more loot, actually you gear up faster in 25's

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 03:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by beardedcandy View Post
    I don't think this holds. you are right that there is "less personal accountability per person" in farmed content, but on progression fights where maximum throughput has to be sustained for X amount of time and you can't afford to lose a single person, personal responsibility actually becomes greater than in a 10 man because 1 mistake impacts far more people.

    what makes a larger raid harder is that there is actually a greater penalty for individual mistakes when content is actually hard. you can't reduce it down to the fact that 1 person is only 4% of a raid group as opposed to 10%. your argument only makes sense for EASY content.
    Aside from Mechanics like the shields on H Spirit Kings, most mechanics are far more forgiving on 25, this isn't wotlk anymore....
    Quote Originally Posted by ImportantLoreInformation View Post
    Seriously. Can this guy please be banned from the forums?
    Quote Originally Posted by JimPaladin View Post
    Could we just get this fucking clown a ban or something? Pretty please?

  9. #269
    Everyone gets a free coin roll on every boss kill on top of being able to roll the coins that they currently possess! MOAR GOLD

  10. #270
    Mechagnome beardedcandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    There already is more loot, actually you gear up faster in 25's

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 03:34 AM ----------



    Aside from Mechanics like the shields on H Spirit Kings, most mechanics are far more forgiving on 25, this isn't wotlk anymore....
    lol BC was far far worse.

  11. #271
    Here is my idea!!

    10m gets 2 lockout per week -if you do 25m, it overwrites the lockout, 10m gets reset-

    10m gear has 0/2 of item upgrade, at the end of every raid -final boss killed- the 10 people in the raid get 1 token (only on 10m) that token can be spent to free upgrade one piece of gear to 1/2 or 2/2 depending where it was at. So clear all 3 raids, get 3 upgrade tokens (gain up to 6 on heroic modes) which means 6-12 tokens per week if you full clear both resets.

    25m gear has 2/2 of this upgrade already, and does not receive tokens, also they can only have 1 lockout per reset. Otherwise everything is the same as it is currently.

  12. #272
    25man raiders will receive a vanity pet named "Special Snowflake". Each week (weekly cos we know u hate dailies bro) Special Snowflake will give you a quest to go and visit a Goblin named "E . Pean" you must do a /stroke emote on him to receive your free (although it wont be free cos ur raiding 25man bro and that shit's hard son) gear upgrade. The upgrade will not be random, you will be able to choose exactly what you want. If you eventually reach a point where E. Pean has no upgrades left for you you may select any 10 man raider from any server be teleported to your location so you can /spit on them and watch them cry.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by beardedcandy View Post
    I don't think this holds. you are right that there is "less personal accountability per person" in farmed content, but on progression fights where maximum throughput has to be sustained for X amount of time and you can't afford to lose a single person, personal responsibility actually becomes greater than in a 10 man because 1 mistake impacts far more people.

    what makes a larger raid harder is that there is actually a greater penalty for individual mistakes when content is actually hard. you can't reduce it down to the fact that 1 person is only 4% of a raid group as opposed to 10%. your argument only makes sense for EASY content.
    While that may be true, people seem to forget the fact that content (especially HC) was designed for 25 people who know what they are doing (this is not referring to DS or ICC with 30%). Not 21 capable raider, 2 sub-par ones and 2 afkers. A death on progression on 25(hc) is just as important as on 10(hc). People who don't pull their weight will be replaced etc. There is a painful truth that when guilds can't gather 25 capable people they just go 10man and kill it already. I think the most important argument here is that is far easier to find and manage 10 HC ready people than 25 of those.

    As one guy wrote, personal responsibilty rises in 25 because you are holding back 24 people. It is more likely that 2-3 people will fail on HC mechanic that 1 on 10 man.

  14. #274
    Dreadlord Turbotef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mswhiskerson View Post
    25man raiders will receive a vanity pet named "Special Snowflake". Each week (weekly cos we know u hate dailies bro) Special Snowflake will give you a quest to go and visit a Goblin named "E . Pean" you must do a /stroke emote on him to receive your free (although it wont be free cos ur raiding 25man bro and that shit's hard son) gear upgrade. The upgrade will not be random, you will be able to choose exactly what you want. If you eventually reach a point where E. Pean has no upgrades left for you you may select any 10 man raider from any server be teleported to your location so you can /spit on them and watch them cry.
    This is some funny shit right here! lol

    Seriously though, stopped forming/leading 25s in Wrath and nothing will make me go back. If Blizzard does introduce something that does, I'll just stop raiding and go full casual and just do LFR, pet battles, and pvp. Get a 2nd job too since it'll be a better waste of my time at that point.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by katta View Post
    25 mans are dying because when they get to a boss thats difficult because a few players are screwing up instead of having to keep working on it to progress 10 of them can drop down to 10 mans and kill the boss and then why would they want to go back.

    I agree though, I dont think the answer is making 25 mans easier. I dont think anyone that raids 25 man actually wants that.
    25s are dying because 25s raiders are not rewarded enough for doing harder content. why do a hard thing for the same reward as an easy thing?

    10s have a much larger margin for error, especially in fights with spacial requirements. maybe if they redesigned the encounter maps so 10 mans deal with the same space issues that 25s content deals with will the two formats be balanced.

    25s should be able to completely cap valor from raids and 10 mans not be able too, or 25s should reward elder charms, or have higher ilevel loot. something.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  16. #276
    Bloodsail Admiral dashflash890's Avatar
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    What do you people have against 25mans IF YOUR NOT DOING THEM why would you care if they made a change to them just to make them more viable. Just still do 10mans if you have something against them.If they add more loot to keep the ratio the same with 10mans WHY WOULD YOU CARE your still getting the same chance's with loot. Also if you don't do them why would you want them to be removed? You don't do them why would you deprive some people the content they enjoy just becuase you don't like it and don't do it. All they should do is add more loot. Half of you saying the ilvl thing will be horrible it won't. There are alot of people out there with your mind set of "stepping into a 25man will kill me" won't do them no matter what they do to them and still do 10 mans. They should just add more loot or make seperate raids like rift. Have 25 man raids totally different from 10mans.

  17. #277
    Honestly, this tweet could have been reworded as: We're thinking of giving 25m an incentive, but regardless of what it is, it will cause controversy.

    I'll bet if they offered 10 more VP per boss in 25m mode, all raiders would rage out. The 25s would yell it isn't enough, the 10s would yell it's an unfair advantage.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    25s are dying because 25s raiders are not rewarded enough for doing harder content. why do a hard thing for the same reward as an easy thing?
    For the simple reason they ARE rewarded. Just not in the way the players want...with better gear.

    As it is, many players disagree 25s are more difficult...at least if you don't focus on the individual mechanics so don't see any particular reason to reward players for simply turning up.

    It is difficult to see what Blizzard will do because so much depends on what THEY are willing to do, what compromises they are willing to make to their own raid model.

    It is easy, for example, to save 25s if they are willing to kill off 10s and return to the situation we had in LK.
    Or Blizzard could try and adjust the reward structure so only a few people felt compelled to run 25s...but that would be compromising its own aim of having everyone raid their format of choice.
    If that was Blizzards goal, they could simply try to ensure the logistics issue that deter the formation of 25s are addressed. But that wouldn't lead to a swift recovery

    From what GC has said, it seems the idea of greater rewards - more loot, pre-upgraded loot, higher iLevel loot, etc - isn't going to happen. That's probably unsurprising.
    Exclusive content also seems unlikely given its cost to develop and their own model. Will they change that model and accept the loss in 10s and the return of the problems the previous model had? Unlikely but not impossible - it depends on how important they judge 25 man raids to be.
    GC said controversial....maybe we'll see 25s killed off entirely? Seems unlikely as they'll probably want to keep LFR as 25 and if you o that, and have the mechanics in place due to 10s, there's little point not keeping 25s.
    Shared lockouts?Doable....but issues with looting and pressure on certain roles. The former can be addressed, the latter? Maybe only allow them to raid with a tank/heal spec once per boss?
    Split the achievements? It seems a popular choice but I don't personally see much benefit to it.
    Increased VP rewards so 25s can cap from 1 or 2 raids?Seems much more plausible but controversial? Only to the degree this should be the case already as VP reward are, IMO anyway, too low for the effort involved.

    It'll be interesting to see what Blizzards idea is.

    EJL

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by beardedcandy View Post
    I don't think this holds. you are right that there is "less personal accountability per person" in farmed content, but on progression fights where maximum throughput has to be sustained for X amount of time and you can't afford to lose a single person, personal responsibility actually becomes greater than in a 10 man because 1 mistake impacts far more people.

    what makes a larger raid harder is that there is actually a greater penalty for individual mistakes when content is actually hard. you can't reduce it down to the fact that 1 person is only 4% of a raid group as opposed to 10%. your argument only makes sense for EASY content.
    It really depends.
    -A death in 10 man is more costly than a death in 25 man, because you have 1 combat rez (10% of the raid) compared to 3 (12% of the raid) in 25 man
    -There are all kinds of mechanics where a single person can wipe the raid by screwing up a mechanic. Defile is the classic example. These types of mechanics are FAR more punishing on 25 man, because it is a lot easier to have 10 people execute a raid wiping mechanic than 25, and it's 2.5 times more likely that you will have someone lag or DC or something (probably more like 5 times more likely with the greater system drain of 25 mans) causing a wipe to that type of mechanic
    -Any mechanic where you need to be spread X yards apart to avoid chaining/splashing damage is far harder in 25 man than 10 man because you are fitting 2.5 times as many people in the same amount of space leaving less room for error
    -10 mans are more prone to RNG based difficulty where X number of players can get targeted with something. An example would be Sinestra and cutters; if you only have 2 healers and they both get targeted, it is almost unrecoverable (which is why they changed that mechanic on 10 man); if you have 6 healers and 2 get targeted, the other 4 can pick it up.

    Both of the previous tier end bosses (Rag and Spine/Madness) were far far easier on 10 man than 25 man, having done the 25 man versions, 10 man felt like a joke. 25 mans may have had the first kills and more high ranking kills (just like there are currently more 25 man HM Sha kills than 10 man), but that is honestly caused by the fact that the majority of hardcore raiders prefer 25 man guilds, and top 25 man guilds tend to have more talented players overall than top 10 man guilds. I have not done any T14 10 mans, but having done every boss in T11, T12 and T13 on heroic in both 10 and 25 - the only fights you could argue are harder in 10 man were Hagara and Sinestra (until the healer target fix and until you had the DPS to 3 heal it). Every other fight was noticeably more difficult in 25 man.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post

    Both of the previous tier end bosses (Rag and Spine/Madness) were far far easier on 10 man than 25 man, having done the 25 man versions, 10 man felt like a joke. 25 mans may have had the first kills and more high ranking kills (just like there are currently more 25 man HM Sha kills than 10 man), but that is honestly caused by the fact that the majority of hardcore raiders prefer 25 man guilds, and top 25 man guilds tend to have more talented players overall than top 10 man guilds. I have not done any T14 10 mans, but having done every boss in T11, T12 and T13 on heroic in both 10 and 25 - the only fights you could argue are harder in 10 man were Hagara and Sinestra (until the healer target fix and until you had the DPS to 3 heal it). Every other fight was noticeably more difficult in 25 man.
    At the time of this post:

    H:Sha 10m - 57 kills
    H:Sha 25m - 45 kills

    Though the majority of the earlier kills were 25m.
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