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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    yup just piss off the most loyal/dedicated customers best way to have a good business rep and show u care and you're not just in it for the $$$$$. /sarcasm
    I don't know how you think that "hardcore raiders" translates into "most loyal/dedicated customers". It's quite the opposite. The more serious you are about a game like WoW the more likely you are to ragequit over changes you don't like or storm the forums complaining about it. The casual players are the ones that are the easiest to please and the most long term, which is why the game has been taking a more casual-friendly trend over the last couple years.

  2. #302
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nnelson54 View Post
    I don't know how you think that "hardcore raiders" translates into "most loyal/dedicated customers". It's quite the opposite. The more serious you are about a game like WoW the more likely you are to ragequit over changes you don't like or storm the forums complaining about it. The casual players are the ones that are the easiest to please and the most long term, which is why the game has been taking a more casual-friendly trend over the last couple years.
    Please visit the forums every now and again, if you had followed the official forums just a tad over.., say, the past month, all the complaints are from casual players > mediocre raiders (That's right, every single one apart from maybe 1-2)

    The last time raiders in general complained about something on a "large" scale, was in Cataclysm because they were left with absolutely nothing to do for almost 4-5 months unless they wanted to roll alt upon alt.
    I'm curious as to where you get that statement from?- the more serious you are about a game like wow (speaking in raid relations) the more likely you are to put in extra time to overcome whatever hurdle it is that seems off to you, you don't quit unless you're a whiny little asshat claiming to be something your clearly not.., again, see the public forums for reference.

  3. #303
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    I am hoping the change will make 25m far more attractive for players than it is atm. Extra loot, big fucking woop de doop. Yeeee, no. Those people that are playing 10m do it because they enjoy it right? Different titles and mount skins would be more than enough for a lot of people. I'd love to see separate titles personally.

    I honestly thought 25m dropping upgraded loot would be the simple solution as 10m 'could' get there eventually. I expect we will see 10m guilds moan about something, they always have. In the end they got their way after all and look how that turned out. Not that I have anything against 10m on the whole, I just think they should have stuck to the WotLK model.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 09:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nnelson54 View Post
    I don't know how you think that "hardcore raiders" translates into "most loyal/dedicated customers". It's quite the opposite. The more serious you are about a game like WoW the more likely you are to ragequit over changes you don't like or storm the forums complaining about it. The casual players are the ones that are the easiest to please and the most long term, which is why the game has been taking a more casual-friendly trend over the last couple years.
    The reason things have favored casuals over the last couple of years is due to the fact they whine more on the forums. There is rarely a constructive post criticising Blizzard with their direction. It's just I want, I want. Even though the 'hardcore' are the minority over all, without them the game wouldn't be able to stand on two feet. If every single hardcore player whined on the forums things would be far different to what it is now, but we don't. You may get a couple of wannabe elitists but most of the time they have no idea what they are talking about.

    I don't have anything against casuals as I have spent a fair amount of my time as a casual over the past few years. However I never had that entitlement burn that people go on about. Time + Effort = Reward in my eyes. If you can't put the time in, expect a mediocre reward or the same reward in a far more extended period. The latter is what Blizzard seem to be aiming for in regards to the gear progression philosophy of 5.2.

  4. #304
    If anything 10 man should get higher ilvl gear since 10 man is more difficult than 25 man plain and simple. Silly 25 man raiders wanting higher ilvl and more loot. I think the shit is fine where its stands personally, there should be no difference in the loot received by a 10 or 25, but diff titles and achieve mounts are just fine.
    do what you feel.

  5. #305
    Epic! Nyxxi's Avatar
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    The surprise can not possibly be increasing 25 man ilvl, not just because Blizz said they wouldn't but because it would be a shit ton of unecessary work to do it. If you increase ilvl of all 25 man gear, the biproduct is that the 25 man content becomes easier and Blizzard would have to fix it so that it is balanced again.

    If 25 mans are abolished as 40 mans were before it, it would likely need to be done between expansions. The top guilds coped with losing 15 people from their rosters, they can cope with losing another 15 or 10 if they go to 15 ppl raids.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crym View Post
    Spoiler: The reason Garrosh is defeated is because, just when he's being attacked, Malchezaar pops out of a portal, yells "yoink!", and takes his weapon away.
    Armory

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    It really depends.
    -A death in 10 man is more costly than a death in 25 man, because you have 1 combat rez (10% of the raid) compared to 3 (12% of the raid) in 25 man
    -There are all kinds of mechanics where a single person can wipe the raid by screwing up a mechanic. Defile is the classic example. These types of mechanics are FAR more punishing on 25 man, because it is a lot easier to have 10 people execute a raid wiping mechanic than 25, and it's 2.5 times more likely that you will have someone lag or DC or something (probably more like 5 times more likely with the greater system drain of 25 mans) causing a wipe to that type of mechanic
    -Any mechanic where you need to be spread X yards apart to avoid chaining/splashing damage is far harder in 25 man than 10 man because you are fitting 2.5 times as many people in the same amount of space leaving less room for error
    -10 mans are more prone to RNG based difficulty where X number of players can get targeted with something. An example would be Sinestra and cutters; if you only have 2 healers and they both get targeted, it is almost unrecoverable (which is why they changed that mechanic on 10 man); if you have 6 healers and 2 get targeted, the other 4 can pick it up.

    Both of the previous tier end bosses (Rag and Spine/Madness) were far far easier on 10 man than 25 man, having done the 25 man versions, 10 man felt like a joke. 25 mans may have had the first kills and more high ranking kills (just like there are currently more 25 man HM Sha kills than 10 man), but that is honestly caused by the fact that the majority of hardcore raiders prefer 25 man guilds, and top 25 man guilds tend to have more talented players overall than top 10 man guilds. I have not done any T14 10 mans, but having done every boss in T11, T12 and T13 on heroic in both 10 and 25 - the only fights you could argue are harder in 10 man were Hagara and Sinestra (until the healer target fix and until you had the DPS to 3 heal it). Every other fight was noticeably more difficult in 25 man.
    Madness was a total joke in 25 mode. In 10 you had to sacrifice a dps in order to feign death/dispersion impales while having only 4 other dps, in 25 you had a whoppy other 16 with the same impales number. You also had much more slow on the healing bloods in the last phase.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    25s are dying because 25s raiders are not rewarded nearly enough for their hard work compared to the 10 man raiders.

    25 are dying cause mojority of the playerbase doesnt want to do raids in 25 man enviroment.

    And also like few people pointed out - some people despite being good have old PC which cant handle 25 man - therefore they go 10 man cause its not worth for them to replace a PC just so it can handle one ascpect of one computer game -_-

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    You mean less battle resses, right?

    Lets say that average player fails on curtain encounter mechanics once per 10 pulls. Its 10% chance to fail per fight.
    The chance that at least one player will die in 25man is 93%. The chance that 3 players will die in the same fight is 80%.
    The chance for 1 player to die in 10 man is 66%.

    The chance for 2 people to die in the same 10ppl encounter - 43%.
    The chance for 6 people to die in the same 25ppl encounter - 64%.

    As you can see, you have significantly lower chance to wipe due to random fails in 10man.
    Unless Blizzard balances arouind coordination difficulties such as this.

    Which they say they do. If they do, then this math is irrelevant because the encounter will already be balanced for it.

    Due the same reason you'll get significantly less pulls/hour than in 10man.
    A statistic which is essentially meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxxi View Post
    The surprise can not possibly be increasing 25 man ilvl, not just because Blizz said they wouldn't but because it would be a shit ton of unecessary work to do it.
    It could be....it would just mean Blizzard wouldn't re tune old raids. Based on what they say, however, it does seem unlikely 25s will be getting better loot.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-03 at 12:30 PM.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by turskanaattori View Post
    So, 25man already drops more loot per player and is in general more forgiving (CRs, raid CDs, individual responsibility etc.), people still want "incentives" to keep them doing 25man? Fucking idiots is all I have to say. Why do you need that shit to keep doing 25 if that's what you fucking enjoy? If you prefer the 25 version, just fucking keep raiding that. You already have advantages over 10man, why the hell would you feel "forced" to switch into it?

    Goddamn mongoloids.
    25 mans are so much easier than the impossible 10 mans. The only reason that there are 15 to 20X more 10 man guilds is because none of them can get 25 people that can be on at the same time. They were able to do it in Vanilla,BC and Wrath but so many things have changed that they just cant now. Its not because they are easier, could never be that.

    They need to just put 25 mans back as they were with better gear and harder to do and then somehow all those players that didnt have the time to do 25 mans or coundnt find that many players would miraculously find a way to do it.

    If you want to get the best gear then you do the 25 mans and if you dont want to get the best gear then you can do the 25 mans. 20 mans should be for the casual players that dont even care about progression or having BIS gear and that just want to raid with friends. 25 mans should be the top tier raiding size that anyone that wants to get the best gear and hardest fights would have to do.

    LFR = So anyone can experience the raids
    10 mans = So friends can raid together and have a challenge compared to LFR but shouldnt take 200 attempts to kill a boss with decent skill level
    25 mans = For anyone who really as good as they think they are when they have been doing 10 mans.

    I prefer 25 mans but I cant keep a 25 man guild together because we have the above average players and the below average skill players to our guilds skill level and the top tier players always want to drop down to 10 mans after a while because they want to kill bosses and not wipe. Have gone though I about 5 guilds now since Cata because some want to split to 10 mans instead of wiping on progression.

    So no I dont have the oppertunity to raid the version I would want too (25 man) because when the bosses get harded it always splits up into a 10 man group instead of trying to recruit more people.

    Something needs to be done because you got what you wanted by having 10 and 25 mans drop the same gear and being easier. Yes they are easier, you can make up excuses all you want with more rezzes and more CD's while ignoring a ton more DPS required to kill bosses. 25 mans have to drop to 3-4 healers to meet the DPS requirements to kill a boss as he hits enrage. 10 mans can keep 3 healers and not even worry about the enrage timer on a boss.

    Paragon (not taking anything away from them, they are great players and the worse player is well above my level) goes to 10 man and clears the content first again like they did in 25 mans. But I dont think that they just kept thier 10 best players but instead kept the players that wanted to continue raiding. If you lose some of your best players you still shouldnt stay at the same level but instead drop slightly yes?

    Many 10 man heroic bosses are hard, I am not saying they are not. Some 25 man bosses are easy, again I am not saying that easier. But overall when everything is taken into account 25 mans are harder than 10 mans.

    I wont even bring up the point that they got world first while not being able to abuse the 25 man loot system. You remember that system as to why many top 25 man guilds were getting kills.

  10. #310
    I respect opinion of all of you who want to raid 10 man but i just dont understand how you can't see that 25 man is not the same if it comes to difficulty and deserves more


    Looking forward to those changes!

  11. #311
    It is amazing what people say is "needed" for 25m raid groups to be popular again. Lets look at it from the reverse ....

    - Not enough loot is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
    - Not high enough ilvl is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
    - Not getting unique pets/mounts is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
    - Not being able to raid both 10m and 25m is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
    - Not getting upgraded loot is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m

    The reasons that people do not raid 25m are...

    - Harder to get a full 25 each and every week
    - Harder to manage and control a 25m roster
    - Harder to get 25 "quality" players
    - 25m spell effects are too much for some peoples computers

    I think the key here is that the loot and or special "gifts" is not why people stopped raiding 25m at all, they stopped raiding because once they had the choice to run either 10m or 25m and get the same out of either one they CHOSE to run 10m. Most of the reasons listed here are just artificial ways to trick people back into running 25m again, it would NOT make them enjoy 25m raiding again, it would NOT make it easier to find "quality" players for a raid team.

    What needs to happen and what I expect to happen is that they will open up 25m raids to cross realm for all current content. This fixes being able to find people to raid with that WANT to raid 25m and enjoy 25m content. It is a simple fix, that will be slightly controversial at the start because 10m will complain but then realize that they have lost nothing at all and just continue on their way.

    EASY - Open Cross Realm on current content for all 25m raids = Winning!

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Croz730 View Post
    Open Cross Realm on current content for all (...) raids = Winning!
    Fixed the quote for you

  13. #313
    The Patient Lockrocker75's Avatar
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    This could be done easily. Make it to where the 25 man bosses drop an item that allows a player to add another upgrade to their items. Of course this would have to be done one item at a time. Not here you go, use this to be able to add a 3rd upgrade too all your items. Just an idea.

    And this item would automatically upgrade the item. No VP needed.

  14. #314
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    I just laugh at ppl saying that going back from 10s to 25s would be an impossible task. The impossible task has been to keep running a 25 man guild during cata/MoP and succeed without being a top guild whatsoever, like some of us did. THAT has been difficult and no future situation for 10s could beat that, so just deal with it

  15. #315
    They have said that they don't believe that 25-man is any different for raiders but that they think it's massively more difficult for raid leaders and officers. So I believe that their most likely incentive will be to somehow reward whoever is raid lead. Most likely mechanism will be an extra extra loot roll, if it's technically feasible.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephre View Post
    Higher item level from 25 mans is not going to happen so stop kidding yourselves.

    Ghostcrawler said
    " Because that would cause progression-oriented 10 player raids to feel like they had to switch to 25s to benefit from the ilevel. "

    By making 25 player drop higher item level items it'll force people into 25.
    Whats up with this "forcing"? I'm already forced to raid if I want gear and forced to get 2,2k arena or RBG rating if I want elite gear. They don't force you to do so but there is opportunity if you want. I can list things I'm "forced" to do this game all day long.

  17. #317
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Have you ever done a 25 man raid?

    did you even bother to go to my youtube chanel in my signature? As well I guess I got Deaths Demise in 10 man... o wait...

    See dumb questions are easy to post!

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by turskanaattori View Post
    So, 25man already drops more loot per player and is in general more forgiving (CRs, raid CDs, individual responsibility etc.), people still want "incentives" to keep them doing 25man? Fucking idiots is all I have to say. Why do you need that shit to keep doing 25 if that's what you fucking enjoy? If you prefer the 25 version, just fucking keep raiding that. You already have advantages over 10man, why the hell would you feel "forced" to switch into it?

    Goddamn mongoloids.
    Takes one to know one, is that all you got, insulting people? And on top of that you're wrong on so many accounts. Are you aware that individual responsibility during progress on any meaningful hard boss is the same on both 10 or 25? One mistake and you wipe. Now tell me is it easier to avoid 25 people making a mistake or 10?
    Then "if you prefer 25 man just do it". Do what? 25 man guilds are organized just like that? 95% of raiders have no time to organize 10 man and they rely on officers to do it for them. You want them to deal with organizing 25 man guild?? Look around, there's so few of them left. You want to know why? Cos people cba doing hard work when they can go the path of least resistance and do 10 man and get the same loot with so much less effort.
    Who's mongoloid again? Some people...

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by rauta View Post
    Whats up with this "forcing"? I'm already forced to raid if I want gear and forced to get 2,2k arena or RBG rating if I want elite gear. They don't force you to do so but there is opportunity if you want. I can list things I'm "forced" to do this game all day long.
    If you want the best gear possible, you need to raid 25Man.

    Plain and simple, and progression raiders usually try to acquire the best gear possible.


    It would be similiar if you need to do RBG instead of 3v3 / 5v5 for T2 Weapons.
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  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Croz730 View Post
    It is amazing what people say is "needed" for 25m raid groups to be popular again. Lets look at it from the reverse ....

    - Not enough loot is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
    - Not high enough ilvl is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
    - Not getting unique pets/mounts is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
    - Not being able to raid both 10m and 25m is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
    - Not getting upgraded loot is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m

    The reasons that people do not raid 25m are...

    - Harder to get a full 25 each and every week
    - Harder to manage and control a 25m roster
    - Harder to get 25 "quality" players
    - 25m spell effects are too much for some peoples computers
    Basically. Path of least resistance.

    When you played in BC, you did 25m raids. There were no 10 man guilds, so getting 25 people wasn't hard. You had the same server community pool, but all of those small 10 man guilds didn't exist. You didn't think of yourself as a 25 man raiding guild, just a guild.


    As for this controversial idea of theirs, I look forward to it... whatever the hell change it may bring.

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