The last time raiders in general complained about something on a "large" scale, was in Cataclysm because they were left with absolutely nothing to do for almost 4-5 months unless they wanted to roll alt upon alt.
I'm curious as to where you get that statement from?- the more serious you are about a game like wow (speaking in raid relations) the more likely you are to put in extra time to overcome whatever hurdle it is that seems off to you, you don't quit unless you're a whiny little asshat claiming to be something your clearly not.., again, see the public forums for reference.
I am hoping the change will make 25m far more attractive for players than it is atm. Extra loot, big fucking woop de doop. Yeeee, no. Those people that are playing 10m do it because they enjoy it right? Different titles and mount skins would be more than enough for a lot of people. I'd love to see separate titles personally.
I honestly thought 25m dropping upgraded loot would be the simple solution as 10m 'could' get there eventually. I expect we will see 10m guilds moan about something, they always have. In the end they got their way after all and look how that turned out. Not that I have anything against 10m on the whole, I just think they should have stuck to the WotLK model.
---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 09:51 AM ----------
I don't have anything against casuals as I have spent a fair amount of my time as a casual over the past few years. However I never had that entitlement burn that people go on about. Time + Effort = Reward in my eyes. If you can't put the time in, expect a mediocre reward or the same reward in a far more extended period. The latter is what Blizzard seem to be aiming for in regards to the gear progression philosophy of 5.2.
If anything 10 man should get higher ilvl gear since 10 man is more difficult than 25 man plain and simple. Silly 25 man raiders wanting higher ilvl and more loot. I think the shit is fine where its stands personally, there should be no difference in the loot received by a 10 or 25, but diff titles and achieve mounts are just fine.
do what you feel.
The surprise can not possibly be increasing 25 man ilvl, not just because Blizz said they wouldn't but because it would be a shit ton of unecessary work to do it. If you increase ilvl of all 25 man gear, the biproduct is that the 25 man content becomes easier and Blizzard would have to fix it so that it is balanced again.
If 25 mans are abolished as 40 mans were before it, it would likely need to be done between expansions. The top guilds coped with losing 15 people from their rosters, they can cope with losing another 15 or 10 if they go to 15 ppl raids.
25 are dying cause mojority of the playerbase doesnt want to do raids in 25 man enviroment.
And also like few people pointed out - some people despite being good have old PC which cant handle 25 man - therefore they go 10 man cause its not worth for them to replace a PC just so it can handle one ascpect of one computer game -_-
Which they say they do. If they do, then this math is irrelevant because the encounter will already be balanced for it.
A statistic which is essentially meaningless.Due the same reason you'll get significantly less pulls/hour than in 10man.
Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-03 at 12:30 PM.
They need to just put 25 mans back as they were with better gear and harder to do and then somehow all those players that didnt have the time to do 25 mans or coundnt find that many players would miraculously find a way to do it.
If you want to get the best gear then you do the 25 mans and if you dont want to get the best gear then you can do the 25 mans. 20 mans should be for the casual players that dont even care about progression or having BIS gear and that just want to raid with friends. 25 mans should be the top tier raiding size that anyone that wants to get the best gear and hardest fights would have to do.
LFR = So anyone can experience the raids
10 mans = So friends can raid together and have a challenge compared to LFR but shouldnt take 200 attempts to kill a boss with decent skill level
25 mans = For anyone who really as good as they think they are when they have been doing 10 mans.
I prefer 25 mans but I cant keep a 25 man guild together because we have the above average players and the below average skill players to our guilds skill level and the top tier players always want to drop down to 10 mans after a while because they want to kill bosses and not wipe. Have gone though I about 5 guilds now since Cata because some want to split to 10 mans instead of wiping on progression.
So no I dont have the oppertunity to raid the version I would want too (25 man) because when the bosses get harded it always splits up into a 10 man group instead of trying to recruit more people.
Something needs to be done because you got what you wanted by having 10 and 25 mans drop the same gear and being easier. Yes they are easier, you can make up excuses all you want with more rezzes and more CD's while ignoring a ton more DPS required to kill bosses. 25 mans have to drop to 3-4 healers to meet the DPS requirements to kill a boss as he hits enrage. 10 mans can keep 3 healers and not even worry about the enrage timer on a boss.
Paragon (not taking anything away from them, they are great players and the worse player is well above my level) goes to 10 man and clears the content first again like they did in 25 mans. But I dont think that they just kept thier 10 best players but instead kept the players that wanted to continue raiding. If you lose some of your best players you still shouldnt stay at the same level but instead drop slightly yes?
Many 10 man heroic bosses are hard, I am not saying they are not. Some 25 man bosses are easy, again I am not saying that easier. But overall when everything is taken into account 25 mans are harder than 10 mans.
I wont even bring up the point that they got world first while not being able to abuse the 25 man loot system. You remember that system as to why many top 25 man guilds were getting kills.
I respect opinion of all of you who want to raid 10 man but i just dont understand how you can't see that 25 man is not the same if it comes to difficulty and deserves more
Looking forward to those changes!
It is amazing what people say is "needed" for 25m raid groups to be popular again. Lets look at it from the reverse ....
- Not enough loot is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
- Not high enough ilvl is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
- Not getting unique pets/mounts is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
- Not being able to raid both 10m and 25m is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
- Not getting upgraded loot is NOT the reason people are not raiding in 25m
The reasons that people do not raid 25m are...
- Harder to get a full 25 each and every week
- Harder to manage and control a 25m roster
- Harder to get 25 "quality" players
- 25m spell effects are too much for some peoples computers
I think the key here is that the loot and or special "gifts" is not why people stopped raiding 25m at all, they stopped raiding because once they had the choice to run either 10m or 25m and get the same out of either one they CHOSE to run 10m. Most of the reasons listed here are just artificial ways to trick people back into running 25m again, it would NOT make them enjoy 25m raiding again, it would NOT make it easier to find "quality" players for a raid team.
What needs to happen and what I expect to happen is that they will open up 25m raids to cross realm for all current content. This fixes being able to find people to raid with that WANT to raid 25m and enjoy 25m content. It is a simple fix, that will be slightly controversial at the start because 10m will complain but then realize that they have lost nothing at all and just continue on their way.
EASY - Open Cross Realm on current content for all 25m raids = Winning!
This could be done easily. Make it to where the 25 man bosses drop an item that allows a player to add another upgrade to their items. Of course this would have to be done one item at a time. Not here you go, use this to be able to add a 3rd upgrade too all your items. Just an idea.
And this item would automatically upgrade the item. No VP needed.
I just laugh at ppl saying that going back from 10s to 25s would be an impossible task. The impossible task has been to keep running a 25 man guild during cata/MoP and succeed without being a top guild whatsoever, like some of us did. THAT has been difficult and no future situation for 10s could beat that, so just deal with it
They have said that they don't believe that 25-man is any different for raiders but that they think it's massively more difficult for raid leaders and officers. So I believe that their most likely incentive will be to somehow reward whoever is raid lead. Most likely mechanism will be an extra extra loot roll, if it's technically feasible.
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Then "if you prefer 25 man just do it". Do what? 25 man guilds are organized just like that? 95% of raiders have no time to organize 10 man and they rely on officers to do it for them. You want them to deal with organizing 25 man guild?? Look around, there's so few of them left. You want to know why? Cos people cba doing hard work when they can go the path of least resistance and do 10 man and get the same loot with so much less effort.
Who's mongoloid again? Some people...
Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
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When you played in BC, you did 25m raids. There were no 10 man guilds, so getting 25 people wasn't hard. You had the same server community pool, but all of those small 10 man guilds didn't exist. You didn't think of yourself as a 25 man raiding guild, just a guild.
As for this controversial idea of theirs, I look forward to it... whatever the hell change it may bring.