25s will be cross-faction.
25s will be cross-faction.
Higher chance for mount drops (and drops 2 mounts)
2 free bonus rolls per week.
Separate achievement's etc from 10man
inb4 the controversial decision is to leave things unchanged
But seriously, I doubt the decision ends up being controversial at all - 25m raiders probably just get 1/2 upgraded loot to drop. Well maybe that would be controversial to some, but it seems like the most reasonable option to reach their goal of adding incentive to 25mans (which in my opinion HAS GOT TO BE loot related)
25 is already really incentivizing from my point of view - I raided both formats this tier.
10-man is easier to manage but also comes with higher personal responsibilty on encounters.
10-man however has and always had worst RNG problems on loot. There's nothing worse than disenchanting heroic loot on our first kill because no-one can use it, while some players are waiting 3 months to replace that one fucking blue piece of gear which refuses to drop.
-25man gets more loot per person
-25man has much less chance to drop useless loot - there will always be someone who can use a drop - even for offspec
I'd gladly raid 25's, I like them. But my PC doesn't share this love and it's kinda hard to find 25 competent people willing to raid at late night schedule.
Making 25's dropping upgraded loot will make them mandatory again, at least at current VP upgrade price which is 3 weeks for just two 2/2 upgraded items.
Last edited by Esubane; 2013-01-03 at 05:30 PM.
You can reward 25s with higher item level. This makes them the "real" raids, that make "real" gear. The low level raids become seen differently by different people, but no one gives a shit about them all by themselves. This was marvelously demonstrated throughout all four tiers of Lich King, where you had to raid a 10s and a 25s each week, often because something good was in the 10s (remember those Ulduar 10 trinkets?), and often just to make better gear / tier gear- but your progression was measured by your 25s. If you didn't do 25s, you weren't a real guild.
The downsides to reverting to this are obvious- the initial setup "forced" everyone into 10s. The few immune to this were the ones with fantastic progression in the first place- I doubt very much the game is full of 25 reg mode guilds, for instance, as most of the good players want to be in a heroic guild- 25 or 10.
They might be hoping they can play with it- "here, your gear starts 1/2"- but that's ultimately the same thing. There isn't enough valor to upgrade all your pieces anyway- and if a tier goes long enough that there IS enough valor, you won't give a hoot about it anyway, because you'll be farming all the hard modes (or your guild will be on break).
They could do something like "10 gear starts 0/2, 25 gear starts 0/3". That might split the difference enough- if you have a 25 mode weapon or trinket, that would absolutely be worth upgrading 3 times, but most gear wouldn't, and it would overall still be a wash.
Now, what if it's not gear? I don't really know what else it could be. Ultimately, they seem determined to make 25s more prestigious than 10s in a way that will BOTHER you if you only run 10s. That's because everyone already KNOWS that 25s are harder, more prestigious, the "real raids", but that 10s are close enough because they deliver the exact same rewards- if Blizzard thought they were different, they would reward them different, and they absolutely do not. Hence, we all run 10s, even if we'd prefer 25s.
I don't know what carrot they can provide that wouldn't really be as stick. All this chatter does is make me nervous that they are going to shit all in my mouth again.
My 2c; The changes will NOT be loot related, but will follow Blizzards Modus Operandi for this expansion. It will offer us something additional to go after (i.e. work for) IF we decide it's worth it and are willing to put forth that effort. They will be reluctant to do anything that will be construed as making 25s "mandatory" (though it will be construed that way, regardless) so I see no increased loot drops or iLvl.
My guesses are along the lines of what others have stated; additional vanity items, titles/mounts, etc.
The idea of a single raid size is also intriguing, and perhaps possible. There have been a few things this expansion that seem to be Blizzard "resetting" our expectations. I could see them making a big change and using diplomatic tones to explain it away, all while really getting after changing our perceptions of the game. These things have happened to a degree in MoP, imho.
I hope its the removal of both 10s and 25s and make them a one size raid.
That way both current sizes will get hurt by the change. 25s will lose 10 players and 10s will need to gain 5 people, in their roster.
Eye for an eye, sort of speak. World bosses can be the new 25+ raid, especially now with the faction tap.
This makes alot more sense for them to do.
Look at all the the other MMOs out there. There is NO 2 different size raids. Its only one size. GW2 has World events which would be similar to World Bosses in WOW.
Being that Blizzard "borrows" things from other games(especially GW2). This is probably more likely to happen.
I really don't think one raid size is the answer, but it certainly is a possible solution. I see it VERY unlikely to come mid-expac, however.
Blizzard needs to do something radical and different to fix this issue and the only thing I could see to resolve all of these issues is to isolate all raids into a 15 Man System.
This would mean both 10 & 25 Man have to go through a period of struggling due to roster issues, and would cause a lot of anger within the community, but the amount of development time, changes and alternations made with 10 & 25 over the past few years has been a total joke and disaster.
Having one system (15 Man) and three setting: Looking for Raid (Easy), Normal & Hard would be a lot simpler for Blizzard and everyone else. All previous content could be easily made into 15 Man content by making that the maximum number of people you could take in, because the content is so trivial that it doesn't matter if you go to do Dragon Soul 25 Heroic with 15 people now.
If they keep pushing this off, it is going to become a bigger and more dangerous bomb that is going to blow up in their face. Radical change is sometimes the only option.
---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 06:26 PM ----------
Last edited by Hyve; 2013-01-03 at 06:30 PM.
There is a higher ratio of loot : player in 25 man. Objectively. 10man drops 1 piece of loot for every five people, 25man drops 1 piece of loot for every ~four. The role ratio isn't the same, so particular roles might favour one size over the other, but as a general rule a 25man raid will gear up faster, full stop. An individual 25man might get unlucky with drops, or a particular 10man lucky, but if you look at the overall pool where the randomness should even out across all the raids, the 25mans will be ahead because they are getting more loot with every kill.
That's not factoring in usefulness of the actual drops, but you can't statistically consider them. By its definition, you can't determine if randomness favours a particular size because it's just that, random.
Any further analysis would be extraneous.
Last edited by Tziva; 2013-01-03 at 06:31 PM. Reason: stupid auto-emoticon THAT WASNT SUPPOSED TO BE :p
This is why I agree with Dubalicious, I'd really like to see some proper analysis of this matter. It's all just assumptions. I don't really care which way the result goes, I'd just like to see some sort of proof about it going into one raid size's favor. Or who knows, maybe there really isn't a significant enough difference to say that there would be a disadvantage for one size.