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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    If said players love 25 mans, what stops them from taking the burden unto themselves and become a raid leader? Nothing. In fact, I would hazard many of those that enjoy 25s are simply lovers of a free ride.
    Not everyone wants to be a raid leader, not everyone will be good at it. I've seen how much effort my own leaders put into the role and it's one I don't want.

    Which happens to be entirely true. It is equivocable to the twinking situation; people stated that they did 25 mans/twinked just because they were fun, but the true reasons came out once fixes were applied in the form of XP locked brackets and the shared lockout.
    And yet there are still players who twink.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-04 at 02:32 AM.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    People got over the death of 40 mans, they'll get over the death of 25s.
    Why does everyone keep saying that they're going to kill 25 mans? Why would Blizzard want to remove the top guilds from their game completely? Most top end raiding guilds are 25 man, and most of them would more than likely completely quit if 25 mans were "removed". I think it's far more sensible to assume that 25 mans will get some sort of server first title as recognition, something currently not in the game and something that would be inaccessible to 10 man guilds. It wont be anything on a "loot" front, and if it is Blizzard will scale 25 normal/heroic to that increased item level of gear so the actual change would be negligible. It will be entirely vanity, but something that 25 man raiders will receive recognition for and (speaking as a player who's cleared MSV HC on 10 and 25) 25 man HC is harder. I don't want to comment on normals, they do not count (in my mind).

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    It's entirely possible the change may be what was suggested; killing both 10 and 25s, and making 15 mans the universal raid size. But, as you said, knowing Blizz it will be gimmicky carrots on a stick.
    GC said the idea they were discussing was controversial....not suicidal. They won't kill 10s mid X-Pac.


    GC and the rest of the developers clearly lack foresight if they did not see this as a problem when they introduced shared lockouts.
    They did. At least foresee how players would react to the size issue.

    EJL

  4. #404
    Mechagnome Sarthan's Avatar
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    I hope they crush this ten man raiding crap. It's not even real raiding. Go do a 5 man dungeon if you want a smaller group. Only reason more people do ten man raids is because it is a lot easier.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Unlinked achievements would be nice. Not to feel superior, but to be able to see whether the dude I'm inspecting raids 10m or 25m.
    Blizzards current concept is that it shouldn't matter as the ach simply recognises who defeated a particular challenge.
    The players point is that the two sizes are different with different tactic.
    The counterpoint is that tactics can vary within sizes due to group makeup, ability and gear so why should tactic changes due to size be recognised?

    Other than that, I have the question as to how effective such a change would be. Ach hunters would want both but they'd only need to finish the run once to get it. Others either won't care or can't get into a 25 to get it. It will create more of an identity for 25s, but also ensure that each size format is seen as different with one being seen as the must-have and the other the also-ran.

    EJL

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    They already stated they will not remove 25 man and blue posts suggest they will add things to make 25 man more popular, this thread is about what those things will be.
    Just.. No... just... stop it.. blizzard >_>

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarthan View Post
    I hope they crush this ten man raiding crap. It's not even real raiding. Go do a 5 man dungeon if you want a smaller group. Only reason more people do ten man raids is because it is a lot easier.
    I don't disagree, but these days is also depends on the Guild and server population, putting together 25 man raids these days is a lot harder then it used to be.

  8. #408
    Well...what could they do?


    Kill 25s?
    Definitely controversial. And it would simplify balancing. BUT....LFR works well with 25s. And it wouldn't work as well in 10s for various reasons. Tank and healer ratios for example. So, they'd want to keep LFR and that means scaling the raids for 25 player.


    Kill 10s?
    Also controversial. But 10s are popular. They are easy to form and manage, they allow players to run with friends. They don't have that epic feel some like but many probably don't notice or care while others prefer the initmacy of 10s or feel the smaller size provides the same feeling of epicness through greater reponsibility and player impact. Killing 10s also would mean greater degree of guild disruption.


    Kill both, bring in 15s/20s?
    Again controversial, again would solve some issues, again would run into the desireability of keeping LFR as 25 and again would have the guild disruption issue, this time affecting all guilds.


    Scaling raids?
    Allow raids to scale in difficulty between 8 and 30 players. Everyone can join in, and there's no need for standbys or benched players. May also possibly allow for some leeway with less than optimal playstyles or players. Downside? There'd no doubt be sweet spots in every tier where X players has an advantage...though X could vary with very boss. This, perhaps, would be optimal but hardly controversial.


    Revert to the LK model?
    Again, controversial. The LK model had many flaws. Players ran 25s because they had to, there were issues with running raids multipel times per week, scaling issues with gear stats and so on. The basic model was 25s were harder, but offered better loot. The end result was that 10s were seen as a joke. Blizzards shown no interest in reverting to this system and indeed, has apparently written off the corner stone of better gear.


    Fix the logistics issues?
    A large part of the problem today is that 25s are harder to create, run, manage. Blizzard can balance raids around in raid coordination, and that is one of the areas they say they balance around (amongst many) but that still leaves out of raid logistics which fall too often on very few shoulders, Blizzard could take steps to aid and redcue the burnde of this aspect, and has alraedy done so to a small degree. The downside is that it still means players would still be unwilling to leave their established 10s and fixing the logistics issues will probably still mean many players run 10s simply because of their friends. It also won't affect the issue some players sya is important of progression players dropping to 10s because they can abuse the avergae skill iof the raid that way. To me, however, that isn't an issue at all. This fix also doesn't strioke me as controversial - unless you count "not doing anything to attract players to the format but are willing to let them settle at their own level" as controversial. Cross realm guilds? CRZ is unpopular to some....


    Additional rewards for 25s?
    Possibly controversial. What you'd end up with is a balancing act in that you try to entice players to join 25s but not to the degree that they abandon 10s. Blizzard would be tweaking its own policies here in that it would be acting to draw players away from a format they like simply to obtain a reward they want, especially if the rewards were unique. Non-unique rewards but a higher chance of a drop may work but then you'd have to balance around rarity and ensuring such drops weren't too common. Titles, acheivements, pets, mounts would all fall under this aspect.


    Pre-upgraded loot drops?
    A popular idea. Personally - I don't think Blizzard are going to give players 10k+ VP free of charge for no additional effort. A small increase in VP gained from raids so the cap is reached quicker, with less reliance on dailies? More probable but then that runs into the old "running out of content" issue.


    Get rid of shared lockouts?
    This would increase players flexibility - but affect gearing speeds and put pressure on some players to run content too often. Not insurmountable issues however.


    Unique content for 25s?
    Blizzard complained about the cost of developing content for all raiders and the need to have it justfied given the samll raider base. One of the reasons LFR was brought in. Ra-den appears to be a Heroic boss, not a 25m only boss. Unique content for 25s appears to be unlikely. As dioes creating special 10m only raids and 25m only raids.


    Increased loot drops?
    Already in place, hasn't worked and there is the issues that rewarding 25s too much will kill 10s.


    Make 25s easier?
    That'd be the LK situation in reverse. It would still cause issues.


    EJL

  9. #409
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IpswichBlues View Post
    controversial.... that's the key word. I am guessing its higher ilvl items again. Which would suck.
    And then 50% of all 10 man raiding guilds unsubbed.

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  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    And then 50% of all 10 man raiding guilds unsubbed.
    And then 75% of forum posters pulled numbers hot out of the ass.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    Meaning that 25 man is easier.... Nice idea... lol

    Blizzard will loose majority of their playerbase now if they punish 10 mans in any way. It sounds like thats what they are doing. So be ready for the bomb.
    They may lose the majority of their raiding playerbase, but that does not equate to their total playerbase - most people do not raid whether you like the fact or not. Number of players that have killed Stone Guard in normal 10 man is 348,460 - a small proportion of the 10 million players WoW has atm. Keep that in mind before you start expecting Blizz will listen to tantrums or blackmail. Blizz can count numbers too.

  12. #412
    Scarab Lord Gandrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarthan View Post
    I hope they crush this ten man raiding crap. It's not even real raiding. Go do a 5 man dungeon if you want a smaller group. Only reason more people do ten man raids is because it is a lot easier.
    or because you need significantly better specs for an optimal 25 man raiding experience than you'd need for an optimal experience playing Skyrim.

    But I think it's funny that people complain about it so much, and think that there is not enough incentive to run 25 man raids. The fact that 25s get 3x as much loot is enough reason to run it alone.

    I am very confident if you ask any 10 man raider why they don't raid 25 man, a large majority of the answers will be because of hardware requirements.
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  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymzee View Post
    Why does everyone keep saying that they're going to kill 25 mans? Why would Blizzard want to remove the top guilds from their game completely? Most top end raiding guilds are 25 man, and most of them would more than likely completely quit if 25 mans were "removed".
    Top guilds are like 0.01% of wow population - nobody cares about them besides people who are in top guilds - harsh truth but truth.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    I am very confident if you ask any 10 man raider why they don't raid 25 man, a large majority of the answers will be because of hardware requirements.
    I suspect:

    >>>I like 10s
    >>>I want to raid with friends and don't care about anyone else
    >>>Don't care but this group suited my schedule/took me in/etc

    would probably be more accurate.

    EJL

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I suspect:

    >>>I like 10s
    >>>I want to raid with friends and don't care about anyone else
    >>>Don't care but this group suited my schedule/took me in/etc

    would probably be more accurate.

    EJL
    >>> Tired of carrying the 15 bad players that all 25m guilds have

    The solution isn't to kill 10m, it's to make 25m guilds more attractive.

    One solution would be to let 25m raids play crossrealm to help finding new recruits for example, not many people want to pay for transfer+faction change to maybe get a spot in a 25m guild if they already have one in a 10m guild.

    Giving more loots to 25m (that already get more than 10) would not do much tbh. Giving higher ilvl would certainly make players switch to 25m but I'm also certain that many 10m guilds would just quit then - not really a solution imo.

    I still really don't understand the whole "25 guilds are dying, force people back to playing something they don't prefer". If 10m is so popular, what's wrong with that? People asked for it and got it then switched to it, now it's a problem? There are more than enough 25m guilds out there, they may not be on your realm but they're out there. Yet again another issue with current state of wow, low pop realms and costing a fucking fortune to migrate+faction change your main+alt.

  16. #416
    The fact.

    Big percentage of current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25 man but they don't have time/patience to organize them.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-04 at 10:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post

    If said players love 25 mans, what stops them from taking the burden unto themselves and become a raid leader? Nothing. In fact, I would hazard many of those that enjoy 25s are simply lovers of a free ride.
    Really? Nothing stops them? Sorry but that's just load of crap. You can't organize and lead 30 + raiders just like that. Not a lot of people have the time or patience to run 25 man guild in the current system. It's basically another job and unless you're in top 100 guild you get nothing out of it and people always chose the path of least resistance and organize 10 mans instead.
    Last edited by Radalek; 2013-01-04 at 09:30 AM.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    The fact.

    Big percentage of current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25 man but they don't have time/patience to organize them.
    Not so much of a fact as a belief. While there are players doing 10s who would prefer to do 25s, the question as to how many of these there are hasn't really been answered. It can range from almost none to almost all and even were the logistic issues to be addressed, there are still other factors to consider.

    If you raid 10s because your friends are there...would the improved presence of 25s cause you to switch?

    EJL

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    The fact.

    Big percentage of current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25 man but they don't have time/patience to organize them.

  19. #419
    id say they shuld keep it as it is, same loot, same reward. plain and simple.. why have an increase in ilevels when the bosses is the same?
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  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    You will have one by the end of the day.

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