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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblazer View Post
    Well RAider321 i assume you don't know something about economy or simply mpla mpla 10-man is the Single viable option since is 90% of raiding population..? Right?
    Well 90% of the 3% of 10 million is quite low.

    Just compare Wotlk and Mop with economy of the game because is simply fact's this is what matter.There is like a 80% less raider's. And ofc this would come with less players.

    At the end this is not about a skill or who is harder ....Is simply the economy of the game and how is gonna take more money. I doubt that people like Europeans would understand about how economy plays rolle with Greed of Companys.
    .

    So it's not 35k Guild that have killed 1st boss. It's far less since many 10-man in my server have disbanded but still count's. So Your 200k 10-man raiders wont get the money to create new raids and new bosses. Simply fact's that people like you deny .


    Did you enjoy Cataclysm raiding? Ofc no...
    If you gonna state "simple facts" then show us the facts? I mean i could also tell you any numbers I want and say its simple facts tho its not..

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by K0rr3 View Post
    If you gonna state "simple facts" then show us the facts? I mean i could also tell you any numbers I want and say its simple facts tho its not..
    Genjuros Server.
    How many Guild in Tbc , How many in Wotlk . And the pick up Cataclysm and Mop atm.

    What are you gonna see ? 1/10 of what guild we had in Tbc and Wotlk.. Many people simply quited because they could raid in what format would want. So right now tell me if you're talking about the fact's. You like many 10-man guilds like we are today not be able to pass 4 bosses in Msv? I thought Good raiders are now in 10-man but there like 20k 10-man Guild's that have passed Elegon. I like the fact that 10-man are the hardcore ones but where are those numbers???

    If people loves so much those 10-man why the... are so many few... 10-man Guild's raiding?
    Pick up Wow progress since so much you want Fact's. Number's??? It's like 30% of 10-man are doing Hardcore. Wow is an amazing number but is like...

    H: Stone Guard (10): 8069 (22.21%)
    H: Feng the Accursed (10): 6342 (17.46%)
    H: Gara'jal the Spiritbinder (10): 5036 (13.86%)
    H: Four Kings (10): 2647 (7.29%)
    H: Elegon (10): 4101 (11.29%)
    H: Will of the Emperor (10): 1658 (4.56%)

    Pick up the number with the number in 10-man normal
    Stone Guard (10): 35042 (96.45%)
    Feng the Accursed (10): 33467 (92.12%)
    Gara'jal the Spiritbinder (10): 31555 (86.86%)
    Four Kings (10): 30790 (84.75%)
    Elegon (10): 21395 (58.89%)
    Will of the Emperor (10): 18568 (51.11%)

    In term's.

    Again sorry but for a 10-milion population that seems to have this game those 10-man raiders represent Quite to non existence number's.

    Seems that people playing this game avoid raiding. And the people that are stoping are simply not replaced. Mpla mpla...Solo raiding in next patch...
    Last edited by Darkblazer; 2013-01-04 at 01:22 PM.

  3. #423
    arguments against incentivizing 25m raid with same gear as 10m, but upgraded 1 of 2?
    We considered it, but the problem is that the 10s couldn't upgrade their gear until 5.1, making 25s drop strictly better gear.

    Is this slightly changed stance on that? Since this 'issue' they had will not exist in 5.2 it looks like they might consider it.

  4. #424
    Just remove that stupid lockout sharing with 10 and 25 man and see the 25 man popularity soar.

  5. #425
    Dreadlord Spaff's Avatar
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    removal of lockouts - it's an idea blizzard don't like... and tbh I don't like much either, would force people to run the "same" raids twice a week, could you imagine that in the current tier? CBA

    pre 1/2 upgraded gear - seems most realistic to me, not overly hindering 10mans and everyone would be on the same playing field in the end.

    completely different colouring/look of 25man tier or gear pieces - Blizzard could make the gear obtained through 25mans identifiable through a unique look (providing you don't transmog or w/e)... it would be more of a prestige thing.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    arguments against incentivizing 25m raid with same gear as 10m, but upgraded 1 of 2?
    We considered it, but the problem is that the 10s couldn't upgrade their gear until 5.1, making 25s drop strictly better gear.

    Is this slightly changed stance on that? Since this 'issue' they had will not exist in 5.2 it looks like they might consider it.
    Interesting. The original two 12/19/2012 tweets on the subject say that 25s dropping 2/2 upgraded would make 25s seem mandatory. Then the 12/21/2012 tweet, which you quoted, says that the problem with 25s dropping 1/2 upgraded expired in 5.1 when the gear upgrade system went live.

    Based on the above, it sounds like the idea may be for 25s to drop gear that's already 1/2 upgraded. Obviously still speculation, but at least somewhat supported speculation.

  7. #427
    My guess would be quality of life changes for 25m and rewards for the harder organisation of 25m.

    Possible examples:
    25m Specific Titles, which look better than 10.
    25m Specific Gear, maybe not huge design changes but enough for people to straight away recognize you raid 25m.
    25m specific mounts.
    25m Specific transmorg models.

    Quality of life:
    Ability to get free Flasks/food, needs 15+ people to channel and only after making it to a certain progress level.
    Food buff persists through death.
    Reduction of Durability loss.

    Just a few possibilities, controversial because 10m groups could feel left out but not big enough for people to think they have to drop 10m altogether.

  8. #428
    I wonder why most people when have no real idea how to promote 25 man raiding uses the only argument which they can - "blizzard give us stroneger more shiny loot and then 25 man will have a renesance of its existence"

    U say people droped out from game cause the 25 man format stoped being interesting cause 10 mans is easier for them - this is pure bs - people stoped and are stoping and then after some time are returning to wow because they are geting bored with the game after some time and have better things to do irl cause after few years of gameplay they know that after few month the gear they obtained with such problems and after so many hours of wiping will be replaced and wortless - therefore they cba to struggle for a few pixels -_- the same is with mounts - they struggled to get some of them and then hard reality hit them - nobody cares longer then 2-3 sec about such stuff as shiny mount.

    U say that in vanilla and TBC raids were such succes - yes they were cause they were something new and interesting in mmorpg - but after few years people got bored with this stuff - maybe its time to work on some new ideas which would bind the online wow community together in the group activity - something completly new and refreshing - maybe in few years this "titan project" of blizzard will bring such new refreshing solutions who knows - and in the meantime peopel will stay hooked up on wow cause its still interesting game - just not so much interesting as 5 years ago thats all -_-

  9. #429
    There are a few myths surrounding raiding in general that I feel obliged to try and bust.

    1. Most guilds prefer 10-man raiding, ONLY because it is superior (in a general way) to 25-man - no other reason.
    -Wrong. Most guilds prefer 10-man raiding out of pure opportunism and ....entropy. Less energy is required to run a 10-man guild - therefore (due to entropy) most guilds settle in them. If blizz introduced 6-man raiding, i'm pretty sure everyone would do them and some people - viciously defend them.

    2. 10-man raiding is the essence of WoW raiding.
    -Wrong. 10-man raiding is only a recent game mechanic. For the most part of WoW's history there has been larger than 10-man raiding (25-man and 40-man).

    3. 10-man raiding is in danger if the status quo is changed - therefore nothing should be changed.
    -Hypocrisy. 25-man raiding is currently extinct. Aren't they entitled to having the same concern (according to most 10-man proponents, they aren't)


    So yeah, I think 10-man proponents are way out of their league here. They are not in position to be so pretentions.
    Last edited by Peking_Man; 2013-01-04 at 03:18 PM.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by allydom View Post
    My guess would be quality of life changes for 25m and rewards for the harder organisation of 25m.

    Possible examples:
    25m Specific Titles, which look better than 10.
    25m Specific Gear, maybe not huge design changes but enough for people to straight away recognize you raid 25m.
    25m specific mounts.
    25m Specific transmorg models.

    Quality of life:
    Ability to get free Flasks/food, needs 15+ people to channel and only after making it to a certain progress level.
    Food buff persists through death.
    Reduction of Durability loss.

    Just a few possibilities, controversial because 10m groups could feel left out but not big enough for people to think they have to drop 10m altogether.
    But 25-man raids aren't harder for the raiders. They're harder only for the leader and the officer(s). So I'd propose that only those people get specific gear, titles and mounts. The rest has in fact less things to take care of than their 10-man counterparts. And that's coming from someone who only went 10-man in MoP and used to be an avid 25-man (let's carry the dead weight) raider.

  11. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viggers View Post
    i hope its something like 25man drops 6 pieces of loot instead of 5. would make 25 gear up slightly faster, but you can still achive full BiS raiding purely 10man.
    also seperate 10 and 25 achivments maybe.

    and one thing people always seem to forget it the BIGGEST drawback of raiding 25's - you need a decent computer! not everyone has access to this and so blizz cannot make 25 mandatory. i have a decent enough laptop, raid 25's, but every time i get to elegon P3, i just sit it out cos my laptop just stops until he is down.
    Just disable recount on elegon

  12. #432
    At this point I wish GC would just post a blog or something and tell us what they are considering. At least then we could debate actual possibilities instead of slinging conjecture around for 22 pages.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  13. #433
    i can honestly say i love 25man more than 10 man, feels alot more epic. i was in a 25 man raiding guild during ICC and recently found another one in mop. 10m's are so bland and feel like a chore compared to 25 mans.

    so any extra stuff for me will be nice winkysmileyface

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    And then 50% of all 10 man raiding guilds unsubbed.
    50%? That's not impressive enough, pull a bigger number out of nowhere, like 90%, that would be impressive

  15. #435
    Looking at the first two pages i see that not many that fond 25 ppl raids are left anymore around...
    I couldnt go through the rest of this, while i was reading every page on similar threads in the recent past.

    It doesn't matter anymore, "Elvis has left the building".
    Wow will never be as it was and i am sick and tired of trying to use reasonable arguments to make people living in denial see things that they should be more obvious and more crystal clear to all.

    Game is shrinking, raiding is shrinking, magic and epic feeling has left the game from the back door, and i am happily playing world of tanks.
    Game over, enjoy your 10 mans and your LFRs.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post

    It doesn't matter anymore, "Elvis has left the building".
    Wow will never be as it was and i am sick and tired of trying to use reasonable arguments to make people living in denial see things that they should be more obvious and more crystal clear to all.
    What a valiant effort you are giving to "save us from ourselves". When's the last time you played WoW?

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    At least then we could debate actual possibilities instead of slinging conjecture around for 22 pages.
    Where do you think we are?

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorfisnson View Post
    Just remove that stupid lockout sharing with 10 and 25 man and see the 25 man popularity soar.
    With pugs that would start crying that 25 mans cant be killed with pugs and should be nerfed?

    Think about what you said.Remember the reason that 10 mans were given the same loot was because it was almost impossible for them to do 25 mans. What has changed since then?

    We know nothing has changed and your comment shows why the only reason they wanted the change in the first place. It also shows why they should go back to 25 mans being the higher level raid.

  19. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peking_Man View Post
    There are a few myths surrounding raiding in general that I feel obliged to try and bust.
    By responding with more unproven assertions of your own?

    1. Most guilds prefer 10-man raiding, ONLY because it is superior (in a general way) to 25-man - no other reason.
    -Wrong. Most guilds prefer 10-man raiding out of pure opportunism and ....entropy. Less energy is required to run a 10-man guild - therefore (due to entropy) most guilds settle in them. If blizz introduced 6-man raiding, i'm pretty sure everyone would do them and some people - viciously defend them.
    Such as this. Yes...the logistics behind 10s are easier than 25. So what? That doesn't mean players loathe the format in and of itself.

    Put simply, if everyone who claimed to prefer 25 actually did 25s, then the logistics issues wouldn't exist to anywhere near the degree they do now. You claim entropy? Players had to get up and make an effort to create 10 man guilds; entropy would have had them remain where they were - in 25s - taking advantage of the loot system and the fact raid leaders did most of the work.

    Most players prefer 10 man raids because most players don't give a hoot about about format. They want to raid, to see the content, to play with friends, to get gear for their characters. 10s give them all that. 25s don't. 25s require they raid with people who aren't on their friends list. It requires them to spend time and effort on the logistics aspect many players don't care about. And since Cata, 25s don't offer them extra loot as a bribe to put up with that.

    The only reason most players had for 25s was because the aim of the game is gear acquisition for character progression and 25s provided that gear.

    2. 10-man raiding is the essence of WoW raiding.
    -Wrong. 10-man raiding is only a recent game mechanic. For the most part of WoW's history there has been larger than 10-man raiding (25-man and 40-man).
    25s came into being with TBC. 10s were around in Vanilla.

    3. 10-man raiding is in danger if the status quo is changed - therefore nothing should be changed.
    -Hypocrisy. 25-man raiding is currently extinct. Aren't they entitled to having the same concern (according to most 10-man proponents, they aren't)
    Yes. But you want BOTH setups to be viable. More, you want both setups run by players who want to run that setup without being coerced into doing so.

    Trouble is..25s don't have that. They offer everything 10s do...but require you raid with people you probably view as colleagues of guildies instead of friends, they require additional logistical effort many players aren't interested in (causing that to often fall onto fewer shoulders with a corresponding fall in players interested in leading such groups) and they require greater coordination out of raid meaning it is more awkward and time consuming to actually arrange it.

    So yeah, I think 10-man proponents are way out of their league here. They are not in position to be so pretentions.
    Actually, they are. They have every advantage going. 25s will require some degree of artificial support in order to bribe/entice players to actually run them. That can't really be said for 10s. About the one thing 10s have against them is that raids need to be designed around 25 mans and so, as a result, 10s can lose that epic feel in some cases. Even then, that's only for some players and some raids; lots of open space also gives rise to a sense of scale.


    Quote Originally Posted by allydom View Post
    My guess would be quality of life changes for 25m and rewards for the harder organisation of 25m.
    Should raiders A thru Z be rewarded because the Raid Leader does extra work? Should the group get extra rewards which will entice players into running both formats at a time when Blizzard are still concerned about (as an example) players raiding multiple times per week? Will QoL issues really be of value to those players who don't require them?

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-04 at 08:16 PM.

  20. #440
    If they buff 25s then everyone will pug 25s. 25 mans were never unpuggable...they were faceroll. Ive been a 10 man raider since t11 sadly and I have to say when I did a 25 man in dragon soul I almost laughed at the difficulty differences.

    10 man:
    2(1) tanks
    2(3) healers
    6(7) dps

    25 man:
    2(1) tanks
    5(6) Healer
    17(18) dps

    in a 10 man 1 brez after that a brez needed is a wipe.
    25 man 3 brez ...and sometimes its barely needed because dps can carry dps.

    The differences is ridiculous and the fact people want more loot is even more ridiculous just raid the way you want f the incentives

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