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  1. #481
    Pre-buffed gear would be something Id want to see and maybe 1 more loot per boss.
    Then through in Valor vendor that sells flasks/best stat foodbuffs/enchants things that are needed as raider.

    If they start giving out better items than you get from 10man, ohwell im not gonna bother with finding or making a 25man guild. So Im just gonna drop the game.
    No shared lockouts? Oh god. So new raid appears, lets do LFR 10man and 25man. Please no. I don't want to do the same raid 3x a week just to stay competive.

    25m really needs something, but if that something is getting gear that is just plain better ilvl than 10man's its gonna be a slap in the face for most of the community.
    You just can't tell people that hey now 10m drops the same gear as 25, but you only get less -> everyone goes 10m cause raiding with friends is soo much more fun than 9friends an 15 randoms. Then after few years, you go back and tell everyone to go find 15more randoms if you want the best gear possible.

  2. #482
    they should do something finally. the main problem with 25mans is that you can always take your 10 best people and have better progression. thats what dying paragon did and look, it worked. or look at kungen. came back, started 25man raiding guild and now? he has his "speacial olympic team" doing 10man

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djouga View Post
    The ideal way to make 25 the only desired choice for every raider is to remove the heroic version of the 10m size. It's not like it was heroic before, so the best thing to do is to actively break every 10m guilds and merge them under a new banner, for 25m raids.

    Why wouldn't anyone want that to happen?
    -Break 3 or 4 10 man guilds where only 6-7 are actually decent to good players
    -Make a reliable 25m roster where only the best players can raid

    Everybody wins in this scenario.
    Have you considered the fact that some people don't want to raid 25 man again and yet want to be competitive? I didn't think so. Now stop assuming and make up a decent well written argument rather than forcing people into something.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 11:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    If football got cut down to a 2 or 3 person game would it feel the same? Football at 11 players is raiding at 40. Right now we have 6-7man football(25man) and 2-3 person(10man) football. Funny enough 7 man is actually a real football style, while less enjoyable and "big" as the full 11, it still has a place. The physical number of people isn't what makes things epic, it is all based around perspective.

    Making 10man the hardcore size would ruin the game pretty quick for a lot of people, like myself.
    So is 4 and 5 man football, your point is ?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 11:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    This thread has been an interesting read to say the least. It's funny seeing all the "this is harder than this" posts in a thread that shouldn't have any of it. The OP didn't ask if you agreed with what Blizzard was going to do, merely what you thought it could be.

    As a 25m raid/guild leader, I would love some help to make things easier. A lot of people in this post, and else where, don't truly understand the difficulty of running a 25man guild, as I have for 7 years or so now. There are tons of issues we deal with, as an officer/GM, that could use some help as a QoL is concerned. The biggest issue for all of us is trying to find people who want to do 25m over 10m. There are exceptions to general masses, but most don't overly care if they raid 10s or 25s it seems. Pulling people to actually want a 25m guild over a 10m guild of the same progression level is nearly impossible these days. My guild is by no means a great raiding guild, but we do decently I think for what we have, so we have no real "top world" pull like a lot of the higher up 25mans have. We are stuck in a sea of 10m guilds that have an easier raiding style, logistically of course.

    I personally would never stop raiding 25s, as would a good chunk of my raiders, but that doesn't mean it's that way for all of my raiders or is it the case for tons and tons of potential apps. The people who don't care never seem to want to deal with the added headache of the logistical end. These people don't have to do anything with it but they are punished by it like the rest of the guild. For example, my guild hasn't had a progression raid in 2 weeks now due to the holidays. We had 3 days off for xmas and that's it but due to needing tanks/healers/etc to show up and having some many different holiday schedules to deal with it was not possible to pull off anything new due to missing a few random key players here and there. This kind of thing is what 25mans have to deal with that makes them die off or not be "popular". If there was something that made scale balanced a little bit uneven to give people a reason to put up with the added issues of 25m logistics that would be great.

    Personally, I would love it if 10m raids just went away. I don't think they are a true raiding style and shouldn't get resources wasted on them.

    Knowing that it would be very unlikely that would ever happen, my next desire would be to split 10 and 25 raids up again like in TBC. Kara to SSC etc. They could be the same ilvl and the same "difficulty" but be different story/lore for each zone. Leave LFR as it is to give 10 man guilds the ability to see 25man content but leave them their own progression path. There would obviously be different server firsts and such since different zones. If a 25man guild could fully clear through 25man heroic and then clear a whole new zone and new bosses on heroic in 10s before a pure 10man guild, then they could achieve both server firsts, but if there was any serious progression guild in either 10s or 25s that would never happen. I think this idea is a logical one and wouldn't really cause too much issue with anyone but Blizzard due to the fact it would be double the content/story to produce per patch.

    My final, and most likely, desire would be to give 25s time off of raiding when raiding is done. That means QoL things like giving us valor cap from just raiding, giving us coins from just raiding, flasks/food/pots just from raiding. Don't require time outside of the set raid schedule. Obviously if people like doing dailies/5mans etc they can still do those but they would be on a desired basis rather than a "I'm really hurting my guild if I don't" basis.

    tl;dr - This thread is funny. 10mans should go die but won't so give different zones if not, give 25s QoL things.
    I love how your implying that 10 man's don't have the same issues. Last thing I checked 10-man raiders also have had holidays, and to be fair we have less backups for our roster than any "healthy" 25-man guild should have. So what you pretty much said is that every 10-man raider out there was sitting at his desk rather than going to family or other things for the holiday. Nice assumptions, I share fairly little faith and belief in your story of being a so-called GM for 7 years.

  4. #484
    is there any 4man or 5man football champions league? or world cup? dunno, i dont care about this kind of football

  5. #485
    Think they better hurry up ... because else there won't be any 25-man raiding left to save ...

    But then again... what's up with all those empty/low populated/unbalanced servers ?

    Has promoting 10-man raiding been an excuse for not addressing those issues??

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by narzhul View Post
    I love how your implying that 10 man's don't have the same issues. Last thing I checked 10-man raiders also have had holidays, and to be fair we have less backups for our roster than any "healthy" 25-man guild should have. So what you pretty much said is that every 10-man raider out there was sitting at his desk rather than going to family or other things for the holiday. Nice assumptions, I share fairly little faith and belief in your story of being a so-called GM for 7 years.
    I love how you imply that 25 mans should have a healthy amount of backups and a 10 man shouldnt have the same amount of healthy backups.

    You also pretty much said that 25 mans should have enough backups to still raid and I guess thats also saying that they would rather not only sit at their deck rather than do holiday things that they also should want to sit and watch other people raid and hope they get the call someday.

    You also have to remember that most 10 mans are doing 10 mans because they like raiding with their friends only. I guess it was bad for him to expect that friends could actually get together and raid. So your comments are the insulting ones not his.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by katta View Post
    I love how you imply that 25 mans should have a healthy amount of backups and a 10 man shouldnt have the same amount of healthy backups.
    it's more likely to get a raid together in a 25 man guild during the holidays since simply more people might show up
    lets say 50% of your raiders are gone because of family obligations etc, that leaves you with 12.5 people in a 25 man raiding guild and 5 in a 10 man one (not counting extra people beyond 25 and 10 even)

    guess which one of those has enough people to get a raid together (hint 25 mans guild aren't banned from selecting "10 man normal")

    Knowing that it would be very unlikely that would ever happen, my next desire would be to split 10 and 25 raids up again like in TBC. Kara to SSC etc. They could be the same ilvl and the same "difficulty" but be different story/lore for each zone.
    yes I am sure blizzard would love nothing more than to have to make 2 raids each tier for no god damn reason at all

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    I mean, hell, the total number of raiders is a tiny, insignificant amount as it is... the number of 25 man raiders is even smaller.
    This type of mentality is what has killed this game for me.

  9. #489
    Based on the number of guilds that have killed at least one boss, here is the trending for 10 man vs 25 man since the shared lockouts were introduced

    25 man US guilds:
    (T10 - 26,657)
    T11 - 1953
    T12 - 1973
    T13 - 1944
    T14 - 1056

    10 man US guilds:
    (T10 - 37,999)
    T11 - 24,604
    T12 - 21,604
    T13 - 21,889
    T14 - 13,207

    The T10 numbers are not really useful, because there wasn't really much concept of a "10 man guild" back in Wrath and most guilds would clear both raid sizes at least some of the time. This data shows absolutely 0 evidence that there is any trend of 25 man continuing to lose ground to 10 man in the last 2 expansions since the initial shared lockout change. 25 man numbers were consistent through Cata, and if anything 10 man participation dropped off more. Both difficulties have had a pretty alarming drop in participation from T13 to T14. However, it seems like the amount of people doing 25 man relative to the amount of people doing 10 man is about the same now as it was at the start of Cata. The problem is more the overall amount of people raiding is way down in MoP, and that creates huge "economy of scale" problems for 25 man groups with how low population several servers now are.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    No, they actualy haven't ruled out better loot based on the latest blue post. At least they were definitely considering having 25 man droping 1/2 upgraded loot but they didn't go through with it since system was introduced half way through the tier. But come 5.2 that problem is gone so it is a possibility.
    But they have ruled out a higher iLevel and have done recently and not so recently.

    There are several issues with a simple pre-upgraded drop.

    First is that it is a massive extra reward, even at the 1/2 level. 750 VP. Almost a full weeks work for even just 1 upgrade level.
    Second is that there may or may not be enough time to upgrade every piece of loot you have while a tier is current. If you don't - and Blizzard accept that as a real possibility - then the simple upgrade is a de facto higher ilevel, something they have effectively ruled out.

    They have considered a higher iLevel and dropped it because of its effect on 10s.
    They have considered pre-upgraded gear and dropped it because the upgrade mechanic wasn't in place. Is the controversial nature of their idea the fact that they are simply going to use wordplay to get around their stance on not providing higher ilevel gear? That pointing out that 10s, in theory, could catch up is enough of a truth so they can't be caught in a half truth?

    Not impossible.

    Thing is, they haven't shown any interest at all in killing 10s. This would likely do it because pre-upgraded gear is better gear. And better gear is what players go for. So if they do bring in this idea, they've effectively reverted to the LK model...with the proviso that if you play long enough and are willing to slow down your progress, you'll eventually catch up.

    Which is an overly complex way of doing things.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-05 at 03:51 PM.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazi View Post
    This type of mentality is what has killed this game for me.

    and yet the game has 10 mln subs and is very healthy

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    The following post is my interpretation/wish, as a 25m HC raider:

    I am hoping that it is simply pre-upgraded (either 1/2 or 2/2) items. Seems to be the most logical, as it would simply be a head start for 25mans, not an entire leg-up over 10s. 10man would still be able to get to the gear level of 25, and in the end everyone would be on an equal playing field.
    This, endthread. As a hardmode raider of 25's this is what I see coming.
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  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Yau View Post
    This, endthread. As a hardmode raider of 25's this is what I see coming.
    Try reading some of the other posts. The one 2 posts above yours pretty accurately explains why you are wrong. I'll even quote the relevant part to make it easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    First is that it is a massive extra reward, even at the 1/2 level. 750 VP. Almost a full weeks work for even just 1 upgrade level.
    Second is that there may or may not be enough time to upgrade every piece of loot you have while a tier is current. If you don't - and Blizzard accept that as a real possibility - then the simple upgrade is a de facto higher ilevel, something they have effectively ruled out.


    Whatever solution they are thinking of trying, it is not going to have anything to do with gear. People might as well get that idea out of their heads. It won't happen. Blizzard has said multiple times, even within the last few days, that it won't happen. The effect on 10-mans would be too great, essentially sending us back to the days of WotLK raiding.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  14. #494
    The suggestion that letting 25 mans drop 1/2 upgraded loot would put things back to the WoTLK days is completely ridiculous. There is a huge difference between 25 man dropping loot that is 13 item levels higher and is a completely different loot table (and generally better trinkets and better itemization in most cases) and dropping items that are 4 ilevels higher and that 10 man raiders would be able to upgrade to that level anyway.

    The reality is, 25 mans already effectively have better loot and faster gearing as is, because of the impact of 25 man drop chances versus 10 man drop chances. In 25 man, more of the gear are main spec upgrades, because you have a much better chance of having people in the raid that can use an item that drops. In 10 man, a lot more loot gets rotted and gets offspecced. Cata research showed that 25 man raiders gear about 50% faster than 10 man raiders.

    Therefore, there already is a huge loot advantage in 25 man that is much higher than the 4 temporary ilevels the 1/2 upgraded loot suggestion would give. If the current gearing isn't "sending us back to the days of WoTLK raiding", giving 25 mans 1/2 upgraded loot won't either. Will it make 25 mans slightly more attractive, and make more people want to seek out to run them and join them? Probably, to an extent. But the reality that 10 man raiders have to realize is, Blizzard wants to make more people want to 25 man raids over 10 man raids, so any move that is made is going to have some impact on 10 mans and be perceived as unfair, although it hopefully won't have a catastrophic impact.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    Whatever solution they are thinking of trying, it is not going to have anything to do with gear.
    I would personally doubt it myself, given what they have stated, but at the same time I wouldn't say it is impossible. As you say, Blizzard don't seem to want to kill 10s so that really limits the scope for incentivisation via extra rewards. QoL improvements are more likely but again...that won't bring players into the 25 man format. It might stop them breaking up to a degree.

    But then...there is that "controversial" comment

    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    The suggestion that letting 25 mans drop 1/2 upgraded loot would put things back to the WoTLK days is completely ridiculous. There is a huge difference between 25 man dropping loot that is 13 item levels higher and is a completely different loot table (and generally better trinkets and better itemization in most cases) and dropping items that are 4 ilevels higher and that 10 man raiders would be able to upgrade to that level anyway.
    Players go after the gear. A lot of players - especially the progression players Blizzard mentioned - will go after even 4 iLevels. That does after all represent nearly a week of work. And if there isn't enough time in a tier to get the VP needed to implement an upgrade for every piece, that turns into a de facto permanent increase.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-05 at 06:12 PM.

  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Scrap 25 & 10 Man and make 15 Man Raids.

    I can only dream ...
    15 mans have been done before, UBRS was a 15 man raid at one point (Then nerfed to 10, then to 5 player group) and it worked out perfectly fine. 10 mans will need to recruit a few more players, 25 mans will need to downsize a bit. Also ends the 10 v 25 debate.

  17. #497
    The problems with raid difficulties/size began when they started making instances with multiple versions.

    TBC model: 10 man raiding to gear up for "real raiding" in 25s, karazhan was an easy instance that could be pugged, or cleared by your guild in a couple hours. cost effective source of sweet sweet purples to get yourself started in end game. then the challenging 25 man raids started and ramped up in difficulty, requiring you to gear up in each previous instance (except in extreme circumstances) and follow an elaborate quest chain to gain access to each new instance. Badge (precursor to valor/justice) gear gets updated periodically to supplement your raid gear or help you make an offset. The only cap on badges is the maximum amount you can get per week from killing bosses (which i happen to think is much more of an elegant design than an ugly 1000/1000 that we have now. this way i won't feel pressured to cap every week, just let me kill all the bosses i can, and give me points/badges clearing them, capping at when i kill all the available bosses.)

    When you see someone in full tier 6 with warglaives, you know they are really good, because it takes time and dedication to get there and character progression feels great. I raided for all of TBC and never killed anything past vashj/kael but i was proud of my guild for doing it, and it was where we belonged as a collective group. we weren't good enough for BT/sunwell. Having tons of requirements to get into the raids may be annoying for some, but more than that, it makes you feel awesome when you finally get it all done. Having Hand of A'dal is one of my proudest achievements in wow. item level differences between the first and last instances of the expansion were reasonable to the point that you would keep a few pieces throughout most (if not all, hi dragonspine trophy) of the expansion, thus necessitating a need to keep running those old instances.
    (http://www.ravencrestwatch.com/OMGLE...attunement.jpg)

    item level of karazhan starting items:115
    item level of kil'jaeden (sunwell plateau) items: 164
    difference in item level: 49

    Wrath model: You can choose to do 10s and/or 25s, but you can only get legendaries and rare mounts in 25s. 10 mans are for alts (and achieves!) and for supplementing your main raid gear with some easy to get pieces. 10 mans were for fun, not for ultra serious cutting edge raiding. This isn't to say they were always easy, although generally everything was harder on 25 man, with a few exceptions. (hi sarth 3d) Everyone knew that real raiding was 25 man heroic. It was harder difficulty-wise, harder to organize, and the rewards were better. No more attunements, you just walk into the zone. Every instance now has a 10 man and a 25 man mode, making for balance problems and the need to clear our both (or all 4) versions to get the most gear you can. After hitting 80, there's no need to go back to naxx, because you can run heroics to get emblems (yet another incarnation of justice points) to buy gear that is better than naxx gear, leaving naxx utterly obsolete. you will use exactly zero items from naxx 25 on lich king heroic 25 because they are so outdated.

    naxx 25 item level: 213-226
    lich king 25 heroic item level: 284
    difference: 71

    Cataclysm model: 10/25 share lockouts so you can only choose to do one or the other. Not both. Both difficulties are now being considering real raiding, (whether or not the difficulty is equal) 25 mans are granted extra loot-per-person as a reward for taking the trouble to do it with more people. This is when people started taking it personally when you told them that 10 mans aren't real raids. The legendaries/exclusive mounts/titles from doing 25 mans are now gone, blizzard's ultimate goal is that you can do whatever size raid you want and have a similar experience, difficulty wise, and reward wise. This was the beginning of the neutering of 25 man raiding. Generally 10 mans are still easier throughout the expansion, but they are much closer in difficulty than before. Gear from tier 11 is long since outdated in dragon soul.

    tier 11 item level: 359
    deathwing drops: 416
    difference: 57 item levels

    MoP model: 10/25 are very similar in difficulty these days, generally. the model didn't change drastically since cataclysm. the idea is that whatever raid size you happen to enjoy, your experience will be similar (hopefully). 25 mans have become much less popular, due to the problems with organizing 25 people. If the rewards are the same, what's the point of bashing your head against a recruiting wall to fill a 25 when you can just go to 10 mans?


    These are my observations, and if i had it my way, we never would have deviated from the TBC model. I had the most fun in wow during that time, and i miss it.

    I have no idea what changes they could make to bring players back to 25 mans, since they're dead-set on 10/25 equality.


    If you want to talk to me about wow theorycrafting or anything really: Eranthe#1639

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    The suggestion that letting 25 mans drop 1/2 upgraded loot would put things back to the WoTLK days is completely ridiculous. There is a huge difference between 25 man dropping loot that is 13 item levels higher and is a completely different loot table (and generally better trinkets and better itemization in most cases) and dropping items that are 4 ilevels higher and that 10 man raiders would be able to upgrade to that level anyway.

    The reality is, 25 mans already effectively have better loot and faster gearing as is, because of the impact of 25 man drop chances versus 10 man drop chances. In 25 man, more of the gear are main spec upgrades, because you have a much better chance of having people in the raid that can use an item that drops. In 10 man, a lot more loot gets rotted and gets offspecced. Cata research showed that 25 man raiders gear about 50% faster than 10 man raiders.

    Therefore, there already is a huge loot advantage in 25 man that is much higher than the 4 temporary ilevels the 1/2 upgraded loot suggestion would give. If the current gearing isn't "sending us back to the days of WoTLK raiding", giving 25 mans 1/2 upgraded loot won't either. Will it make 25 mans slightly more attractive, and make more people want to seek out to run them and join them? Probably, to an extent. But the reality that 10 man raiders have to realize is, Blizzard wants to make more people want to 25 man raids over 10 man raids, so any move that is made is going to have some impact on 10 mans and be perceived as unfair, although it hopefully won't have a catastrophic impact.
    ANY power advantage will cause a large portion of the raiding population to swing back to 25s. Those 4 iLvls, which count as a not insignificant 750 valor, will be perceived as required to progression minded players, just as much as the dailies and valor gear were/are even though you could get better gear through the raids themselves. If it provides even the slightest character power increase, people WILL chase it, even if it involves doing something they hate. It has been demonstrated countless times since WoW launched, and really since MMOs existed.

    I like 25s. I prefer them actually. But if we are going to have 2 formats, I don't want my 25-man raid filled with people who would rather be doing 10-man yet feel forced into 25s for the upgraded gear. 10vs25 will never be an equal choice, but it needs to be a compelling choice without the advantages of one format completely overshadowing another. If they can't figure out a way to do that, then they need to pick one singular raid size and stick with it.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Based on the number of guilds that have killed at least one boss, here is the trending for 10 man vs 25 man since the shared lockouts were introduced

    25 man US guilds:
    (T10 - 26,657)
    T11 - 1953
    T12 - 1973
    T13 - 1944
    T14 - 1056


    10 man US guilds:
    (T10 - 37,999)
    T11 - 24,604
    T12 - 21,604
    T13 - 21,889
    T14 - 13,207

    Wow nice work with the numbers. The drops in raiding from T13 to T14 is pretty crazy. I wonder what it means in terms of how people are playing.

    For 25 man raids I cannot see any changes that would shift more of the population to 25 man raiding other than better loot, significantly more loot or 25 man exclusive content.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by dodonpachi View Post
    The drops in raiding from T13 to T14 is pretty crazy. I wonder what it means in terms of how people are playing.
    You have to take into account that numbers for prior tiers are accounting for the time since their release until now. Or at the very least, all the way up to when the next tier was released. T14 has only been out for roughly 3 months, plus people have to level and gear their characters first. Those numbers will probably come up to around the same level as the prior tiers over time.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

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