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  1. #541
    Scarab Lord anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    All that means is that if the upgraded item idea is how they're thinking about making 25s attractive, it's not happening in 5.2. Which seemed likely anyway, as the PTR is already up and this mystery idea hasn't even been announced yet.
    Well atleast this means T14H gear is bis until T15H gear. That is niceish.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by katta View Post
    You act as if the balance between 10 and 25 is just scaled. Sorry but you need more than 2.5x more dps from each player in a 25 man in a 10 man.

    For example if each of your DPS in a 10 man needs to do 60k to kill a boss then in 25 man they will need to do about 75-80k to kill the boss for the most part.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Let's not forget about the higher personal Dps required by each player? (a few more Stormlashes/Banners does not make up for it, and all buffs have been covered by any competent 10man raid since Cata launch) Gara'Jal HC being the 1 single exception.

    The only thing "easier" in 25mans is that you have more Healing CDs.

    On topic: 10 AND 25mans removed. Welcome the new 17mans (random number between 15 and 20).... Do want.
    Let us forget how the number of tanks (not 5 on on 25, only 2, and with better dps due to more vengeance), healers (not always 5, 8 or certainly not 10), external CDs, number of people taking care of mechanics and losing dps, work per fight.

    Why people won't accept that T11, T12 were imbalanced for 10 and 25, but T13, T14 and hopefully onwards, Blizzard have done a great work of balancing encounters (although the balance most of the time come of having the same number of fights slightly easier for each of the sizes)... Sincerely, don't you think that Blizzard have pay a bit more of thinking, being their job at all that, and have missed those things?
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-01-06 at 12:55 AM.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Well atleast this means T14H gear is bis until T15H gear. That is niceish.
    Not necessarily. It depends on what they set the T15 ilevel to. If it follows the same inflation trends as Cata, T15 normal mode loot would be ilevel 516 and T15H loot would be ilvl 529. However, will the up that do 524/537 to account for the existence of gear upgrades? It's not clear yet. Not only that, unless 5.2 isn't out until like June, you won't likely have more than half of your items upgraded by the time it hits.

    Also, people are way too quick in dismissing this announcement as proof that they won't use the 1/2 or 2/2 upgraded item thing as a 25 man incentive. Just because they won't make it possible to upgrade T15 gear right away doesn't prevent them from having 25 mans drop pre-upgraded gear if they wanted to.

    And, anyone that thinks they would entertain completely removing a raid size in the middle of an expansion is insane. I was somewhat surprised they didn't streamline everything to a single 10 or 15 man raid size for MoP. However, they would have to wait for the start of the next expansion to entertain doing something like that now.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 08:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Let us forget how the number of tanks (not 5 on on 25, only 2, and with better dps due to more vengeance), healers (not always 5, 8 or certainly not 10), external CDs, number of people taking care of mechanics work per fight.

    Why people won't accept that T11, T12 were imbalanced for 10 and 25, but T13, T14 and hopefully onwards, Blizzard have done a great work of balancing encounters (although the balance most of the time of having the same number of fights slightly easier for each of the sizes)...
    I haven't done T14 hard modes, but in T13, they weren't even remotely balanced. The DPS requirement on difficult DPS checks like Ultraxion (pre-nerfs) and Spine tendons wasn't even close. These checks were a joke in 10 man.

  4. #544
    What if it's something as simple as having the Sinestra type Heroic mode boss of this tier, only accessible in 25m?? The iLvl drops would be equal to the rest of the heroic iLvl's as not to make a disparity.

    Being a 10m raider i would have no problem with this. Also i would not have a problem with going back to the BC style of raiding. Having separate player requirements for different raids. Trust me, if they did that, 10 man guilds would find a way to go 25's, either by recruiting or merging. I LOVE raiding 25 mans, but i also love raid leading and being GM, I have been raiding 10's for the past 3 tiers because of logistical nightmares. People say they want to raid 25's but they dont want to put in the time and effort to sustain a 25-30 player roster. If they moved to one raid size, whether it's 25-20-15-10 people would conform to what they had to in order to raid.

    I personally like the BC style because it makes tuning so much easier, and it stops all the BS QQ about 10 vs 25's because they would have nothing to compare it to.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Kunta View Post
    What if it's something as simple as having the Sinestra type Heroic mode boss of this tier, only accessible in 25m?? The iLvl drops would be equal to the rest of the heroic iLvl's as not to make a disparity.

    Being a 10m raider i would have no problem with this. Also i would not have a problem with going back to the BC style of raiding. Having separate player requirements for different raids. Trust me, if they did that, 10 man guilds would find a way to go 25's, either by recruiting or merging. I LOVE raiding 25 mans, but i also love raid leading and being GM, I have been raiding 10's for the past 3 tiers because of logistical nightmares. People say they want to raid 25's but they dont want to put in the time and effort to sustain a 25-30 player roster. If they moved to one raid size, whether it's 25-20-15-10 people would conform to what they had to in order to raid.

    I personally like the BC style because it makes tuning so much easier, and it stops all the BS QQ about 10 vs 25's because they would have nothing to compare it to.
    The outrage that would ensue from gating an entire boss so that 10 man raiders could never see it would be far greater than any of the gear upgrade suggestions.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Let us forget how the number of tanks (not 5 on on 25, only 2, and with better dps due to more vengeance), healers (not always 5, 8 or certainly not 10), external CDs, number of people taking care of mechanics and losing dps, work per fight.

    Why people won't accept that T11, T12 were imbalanced for 10 and 25, but T13, T14 and hopefully onwards, Blizzard have done a great work of balancing encounters (although the balance most of the time come of having the same number of fights slightly easier for each of the sizes)... Sincerely, don't you think that Blizzard have pay a bit more of thinking, being their job at all that, and have missed those things?
    agree, being done both 10 and 25 as a healer and also in DPS, 25 is way easier in most fights

    if a healer DCs in 10man is usually GG if a huge damage comes, in 25 you have more 4 healers and 4 Cds, if its Stacked damage then it becomes even more easy to handle it

    DPS is more needed on 25 only the 2 weeks of new content, max 3, after that Dps in 10 man have more responsibility to pull their numbers (drops sucks in 10 man)

    so the final is 25 is only harder in the first 2/3 weeks and only harder if the encounter require constant /range and small spaces (blood queen, alk'ir, ...), the rest if face roll

    its only not face roll if you have to carry 8 slackers

  7. #547
    Nope. Wrong on so many points. When progressing trough heroic every death counts, both in 10man and 25man. From personal experience, as it seems that counts here for something, when we couldn't kill something we just switched 10man and lookie look, 2 min left on enrage and boss suddenly gets killed. You seriously have to stop pulling "ye, but i did both and x is harder" as it doesn't validate for anything.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by phyx View Post
    Nope. Wrong on so many points. When progressing trough heroic every death counts, both in 10man and 25man.
    Truth many seem to miss.

  9. #549
    Stood in the Fire Mcaffee's Avatar
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    Okay silly question maybe but in several posts 15 man raids have been brought up, now this would be controversial but could it work?
    What I mean is scrap both 10 & 25 mans and institute the new 15 man raids (including LFR & world bosses).

    This is not a troll question I would honestly like some good feedback on this as this seems to me at least a workable yet controversial solution.

  10. #550
    Hopefully he means they are considering removing the merging and allowing separate lockouts again. Raiding in wotlk was the last time raids felt really epic imo. I'd also like to see the merging on items removed as well. 10 man just doesn't feel epic at all. It's just something you run with friends for fun. This is all in my opinion btw before anyone flames me too hard.

  11. #551
    Scarab Lord anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Hopefully he means they are considering removing the merging and allowing separate lockouts again. Raiding in wotlk was the last time raids felt really epic imo. I'd also like to see the merging on items removed as well. 10 man just doesn't feel epic at all. It's just something you run with friends for fun. This is all in my opinion btw before anyone flames me too hard.
    No thanks. you may want this however just as many people are GLAD that the lockouts are not seperated and never want them to be again.

    You shouldn't need 2 lockouts for loot because contrary to wotlk raids drop TONS of items on boss kill. If you must raid the same zone twice in a week on the same char do LFR otherwise do an alt.

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by phyx View Post
    Nope. Wrong on so many points. When progressing trough heroic every death counts, both in 10man and 25man. From personal experience, as it seems that counts here for something, when we couldn't kill something we just switched 10man and lookie look, 2 min left on enrage and boss suddenly gets killed. You seriously have to stop pulling "ye, but i did both and x is harder" as it doesn't validate for anything.
    While I agree with the first part of your post, the second part should come with a footnote. We hear these stories all the time how people couldn't kill something on 25m and than downsized to 10m and killed it. Congrats, but the main reason this usually works is because you can bring your 10 best players with the best gear. And since there is a lot more gear available in 25m you'll most likely have better gear than a similar progressed 10m. Comparing it that way doesn't work!

    Edit: As 25m and 10m have more or less the same difficulty at the moment higher item level gear or more gear drops for 25m should not be the way forward. The people that have a harder job are the officers, so I sincerely hope that these ideas support them and the guild's convenience.

    Just because you raid 25m that doesn't mean you're pushing any different buttons than in 10m. Get off your horse and get over yourself! You're not THAT special!
    Last edited by Ethes; 2013-01-06 at 02:38 AM.
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  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    I'm tired of the argument you 10s people use in regard to cd's. Those cds are a MUST in 25man raids. You HAVE to have them in the raid to kill things and live through things. The reason they happen in 25s only in because it is unneeded in 10s due to the difficulty scaling of said ability. Deathwing's impale for example, on 10s could be survived by the tank using all of their personal CDs. On 25s, you needed a sac + something else to live through them. The damage ended up the same in both difficulties, but 25s needed more of them and more coordination to end up with the same result.
    Did you do H-Deathwing pre-nerf, in progression gear, on 10 man? I did, and we rotated sac/pain supp on impales as well. Your point is simply not true. I've already pointed out how things like barrages on H-Blackhorn hit for THE SAME AMOUNT in both 10 and 25. Crushes had a much bigger impact in 10 man because you couldn't overlap it, because to beat the enrage, you usually 2 healed it, and to have multiple people getting crushed meant the healing would fall behind. Some mechanics (mostly to do with raid wide damage) scale differently between the two difficulties, but not all, and often not tank abilities, at all.

    Edit: Also, do we have any confirmation that 10 man is balanced for 2 healers? I thought it was balanced for 3, and that most progression kills come with 2 healers to up the DPS. That's another problem in comparing them - swapping a healer for a DPS decreases your healers by 1/3rd and increases your DPSers by 20% in 10 man. In 25, those swaps are much smaller in impact.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2013-01-06 at 03:42 AM.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by iggie View Post
    I play on Chinese servers. The increased ilevel from 25 mans hasn't broken up a lot of 10 mans (but a few I know recruited and went 25) and a lot of 10's remain. My 25 man has had a LOT of applications however, which has really helped us. So far the change has stopped further degradation of 25 mans.... for now.
    Quote from another thread. If Blizzards is having those data and it stabilized things over there...one can hope.

  15. #555
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    The ability to choose 1/some/all of the loot that you get from a boss
    The ability to have 100% chance to coin loot, when you coin a 25man boss.
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Blizzard offered cardboard cut outs with poster pictures of bosses stapled on them upside down and sideways and many players now feel that is raiding.

  16. #556
    Scarab Lord Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Higher ilvl rewards for 25man would just create a need for "harder tuned" 25man bosses fueling the "25 is harder than 10man" debate greatly, just can't see that helping 25man raiding.

    Seperate achievements, mounts only from 25man? increase gear drop even more?

    IMO the issue isn't with the 10 and 25 raid model, the error lies with people so set in their stubborn (and rather stupid) heads to compare 10 and 25man raid. Seperate achievements for 10 and 25 and Blizzard doing some comunity work to show people that 10 and 25 is NOT comparable is going to calm the storm way more than any "fix" they can come up with.

    The reason why numbers of 25man raiding characters are dropping is simply because it requires more time and you depend on more people to help you out, it's simpler to rely on 9 others instead of 24 others. Increasing gear level, throwing more gear and/or mounts and/or titles and/or glory won't help.
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  17. #557
    I hope they scrap 25man raiding, along with 10man and bring back 40man.
    The current small scale raids don't feel epic enough.

  18. #558
    My wish is for there to only be 15-player raids

  19. #559
    I am going to guess special titles and mounts.

  20. #560
    3 healers in a 10 man would be the equivalent scaling of having 7-8 healers in a 25 man, and it's pretty clear that 25 man is tuned around an average of 6 healers. I am pretty sure that they have said in the past multiple times that they tune DPS requirements for 10 man around the assumption that not every raid buff will be present, because you just can not guarantee that it will be in a 10 man group. For 25 mans, they tune the DPS requirement around having all buffs, since it is so easy to have everything covered with a 25 man group.

    That philosophy alone automatically makes 10 man easier (for any fight where DPS/enrage timers are a key part of the difficulty) because any progression oriented 10 man group is going to tailor their group composition around having more of the buffs covered than the DPS requirement is tuned around.

    That said, 10 man also is probably tuned around the raid having a lower average ilevel, because the increased randomness of loot in a 10 man means gearing is much slower. That could be part of the reason why 25 man raiders go into 10 man and find the difficulty so trivialized.

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