How about this?
They take 1 person for the top 100 25 man guilds and create 10 10 man groups.
They take 2-3 people from the top 100 10 man guilds to create 10 25 man groups.
They each give them 1 month to raid together and get to know each other and then have them run the hardmodes in the same gear. Each fight everyone gets upgraded gear so loot drops done matter.
The groups that do better get to keep their original raid size as the one that loses becomes the casual raid style.
1. They cannot switch out any classes for any fights so the 10 or 25 you go in with are the only ones you use.
2. They will all have the same gear so RNG loot drops will have no advantages for any size.
3. Anything else wanted to be added so that no size has any advantage over the other except in raid difficulty.
That would be controvesial and fun to see.
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
And mods should be doing something about you, it's about time now. You are having out of context quote in your sig which is highly misleading and is not representing what devs actualy said in that blue post.
Last edited by Radalek; 2013-01-06 at 03:27 PM.
Im assuming it will just be some quality of life bonuses for 25 man guilds to make it easier to organise and make it take less time. So small things like a guild achievement that rewards Have Group, Will travel but it has a shared guild cd and can only be used like once per day so it doesn't threaten the whole open world idea so at least the raid can get started a bit faster.
Also maybe a guild achievement that rewards a set of amazing transmoggable armor, like challenge modes, with the guild colours or something.
Here is the full quote with a source, as you can see it is clearly referring to LFR by both the developer and the guy asking the question. 25 man being a better choice for LFR does not mean players can be boosted in 25 man hardmodes during progression in progression gear, if you are going to refer to that statement, don't quote parts out of context for gods sake. That is because the instance is tuned in a way where 10 proper players can carry 15 others in LFR, that is not the case in 25HC, 25 man was also chosen because there is more dps then tanks/healers, hence shorter queue's.The new LFR system you have in WoW now seems like a great way for people who dont have alot of time to donate to raiding guild environments a chance to see content that was most of the time closed to them, however im not a big fan of 25man raids. Is there any plans to add a 10man choice to the LFR system?
We think 25 works better for Raid Finder. The ratios of DPS to non DPS more matches the player population and there is less risk of getting an unviable group. In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.
Last edited by rashen; 2013-01-06 at 04:10 PM.
Madness had somewhat high dps requirement on 25man, at least compared to 10man, but it wasn't really that hard to achieve. I'd say handling the cooldowns for the tanks so they could survive the impale was harder than the dps check. We had to use 2 bear tanks, because our warrior simply couldn't handle it. Several cooldowns stacked on top of each other and he could take one, but how the hell were you going to take the next time it was his turn to soak when those cooldowns were on cooldown ? Hands down, 10man won this fight in the "which size has the harder boss" -battle.
If you're going to say 25man DS was harder, at least argue for the fights that actually were harder on 25man. 10man had madness and hagara, 25man had yor'sahj, ultraxion and I dare say zon'ozz. If I really had to list all fights under one raid size or the other, I'd say morchok and blackhorn were harder on 10man and spine on 25man - resulting in 4-4 tie, wohoo. I'm talking about the first two months, before the 5% nerf, mind you. The nerf, once it got high enough, allowed you to skip stuff completely trivializing many of the fights, like killing zon'ozz without ever killing a single tentacle. Do ~10 bounces and just zerg the boss down, heal through the damage. Or solo/duohealing ultraxion. We might've had more wipes on madness due to having too much dps and pushing the arm/limb to 70% too quickly as we jumped to the platform, than we had wipes on the whole fight during progress.
Coming from someone who favors 25man raids by a pretty big margin when compared to 10mans, don't try to make bosses seem harder on 25man when they were not. Same goes for 10man fans, though.
Last edited by Arhippa; 2013-01-06 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Correcting a brainfart
In Soviet Russia, you loot to raid.
The suspense is killing me! I want to know.
I've raided both serious 10man and 25man. I want to raid 25man but all I can find at the moment is a 10man, which isn't what I want so I stick to idle LFR runs every week.
All in all I personally would like to be rid of 10 and 25 and just have it at 15man raiding. As said though that won't happen in the middle of an expansion, unless they release 1 raid as a 15man in patch 5.4 to see how it goes.
Perhaps it could be QoL additions to a 25 man raid size. Some examples:
1. Able to use guild summon in a raid instance similar to Cataclysm but puts an hour debuff on your character "Cannot be summoned via guild summon".
2. Food buffs have 3 charges, each time you die 1 charge is taken away.
3. Put a stone in the center of each boss room that appears only after killing it. clicking on this stone gives you a 30% speed increase for 25 seconds (to recover from raid wipes faster).
Maybe those might spur you into a 25 man guild but not sure. Definitely would sway my opinion if I were a new player.
A lot of interesting speculation, but none really controversial and realistic.
Me personally wold like to see the lock outs removed, so you could run 25 and 10 in the same week. Not sure that is controversial
"Peace is a lie"
I would not be shocked if they just do what they have done for the Asian markets except still have a shared lockout. Increase 25 man ilevel by 8 (either the base ilevel or make everything pre-upgraded), and increase the health and damage done tuning of 25 man raids by 8%.
Having split lockouts is something that GC has alluded to is a cultural difference between Asia and EU/NA, where too many people in EU/US would feel it was an excessive time commitment, but Asian guilds like it. However, I don't think for a second that they aren't testing the 25 man increased ilevel thing to see what impact it has on 25 man vs 10 man participation. If they like what they are seeing, don't be shocked if they go for it here.
The controversial not ready to spring on you idea they have had is - getting rid of 25 mans completely.
Giving MORE gear and allowing faster gearing wasn't enough.
Giving different or unique rewards will simply mean players will do both, or the one which has the greatest e-peen.
QoL and logistics improvement may mean more players are willing to take on the burden of raid leadership, but won't necessarily draw players to 25s.
Split lockouts exist to deal with the issues of players gearing at different speeds, the problems caused by gearing multiple times per lockout and the pressure certain players would be under to raid whether they want to or not.Having split lockouts is something that GC has alluded to is a cultural difference between Asia and EU/NA
What GC referred to was the iLevel increase.
They don't need to. They already know. It'd kill 10s. Just like it did before.However, I don't think for a second that they aren't testing the 25 man increased ilevel thing to see what impact it has on 25 man vs 10 man participation.
Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-06 at 09:56 PM.
Honestly, they should remove both 10 and 25 man raids and just make 15 the norm.