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  1. #641
    The reason people don't raid 25 man is simply because it's easier to raid 10 (Not the content, just to set up) - Raising the ilvl would be one way to fix this, but that would cause a shitstorm of QQ on the forums from 10 man players (probably including myself lol).

    I'm interested in what they're going to do about it, it's fairly balanced right now in terms of drops and difficulty, the difference is just how hard it is to set up. I don't see why they need to concern themselves with it too much tbh, guilds with the roster will do 25, guilds without it will do 10.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    so 25 man guilds dying is a big tragedy that has to be fixed, but 10 man guilds dying is "who cares"

    nice double standard there
    Not really our fault blizzard put them on seperate lockouts as most of the asian playerbase was more than willing to run both.
    The more work you put in the more reward you should get, and limiting content on behalf of the lazy/unprepared was a bad idea to start off with.

    Though if they were going to maintain the upgrade system with every tier I could easily see 25m gear coming fully upgraded thus offering people a faster yet equal gearing method.

    Though without offering fully upgraded gear they could still still offer lets say 2-5 lesser charms of good fortune per boss kill in 25m which is still a incentive to 25m without hindering 10m.

  3. #643
    My guess is that it'll either be increasing 25-man boss drops by 1, making 25-man raids drop more raid-grade crafting materials per player or making 25-man items start out upgraded 1/2. Assuming that the item upgrade system stays the same in the future, that's a surprisingly massive boon - the equivalent of 750 VP off the cap for every single drop! I can't see them changing cosmetic rewards like titles or mounts between the two, so I think it has to be gear-related to some extent. 25-man raids having access to more craftable gear through drops sound like the least damaging option.

    In any case, this is a change that needs to happen. 25-man raiding is dead on my server, and it's far from an all-around dead server. There needs to be something that makes the choices distinct. Not as extreme has a heroic/normal difference, but there needs to be a difference regardless.

  4. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    Forcing people into 25mans it fucking stupid, some people cant raid 25mans/dont have the guild for 25mans/dont have the money to constantly sever hop to get a 25man guild.

    Making 25man drop more/better loot is just plain retarded and show how little ghostcrawler actually cares about the "community"

    Sick of "25man is better HURDUR" shit
    Seriously.
    so only few pages in a dont know if been suggested yet, but server hoping mite be kind of what they are on about... maybe they are going to allow CROSS REALM RAIDS FOR 25 MAN ONLY?

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexxie View Post
    Fixed - If there were to be one size that fits in the middle, 20man would be it. Wouldn't mind, wouldn't like but meh.
    GC has said if they could start all over again there would only be 15-player raids. I think it makes the most sense ... assuming perfect scaling from 5-players (1 tank, 1 heal, 3 dps to 3 tanks, 3 heals, 9 dps)

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I don't see why they need to concern themselves with it too much tbh, guilds with the roster will do 25, guilds without it will do 10.
    Because a significant portion of guild leadership have decided that running a 10 man guild is much easier, and it has cut down the non hardcore 25 man scene by to big a margin. It is very difficult to find a 25 man guild now days.

  7. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    GC has said if they could start all over again there would only be 15-player raids. I think it makes the most sense ... assuming perfect scaling from 5-players (1 tank, 1 heal, 3 dps to 3 tanks, 3 heals, 9 dps)
    Have a source on that? Doubt it, considering he said no such thing. He addressed it as an idea, that is all.

    Also, the composition wouldn't work like that. Considering they already have experience balancing 20 man content, they kill two birds with one stone. 15 man is just 10 man with 5 extra dps and maybe another healer. 25 mans would have to cut more players than 10 mans would have to recruit. Wouldn't make sense.
    Last edited by Vexxie; 2013-01-08 at 06:13 AM.
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  8. #648
    The answer is Cross faction raiding.

  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexxie View Post
    Have a source on that? Doubt it, considering he said no such thing. He addressed it as an idea, that is all.

    Also, the composition wouldn't work like that. Considering they already have experience balancing 20 man content, they kill two birds with one stone. 15 man is just 10 man with 5 extra dps and maybe another healer. 25 mans would have to cut more players than 10 mans would have to recruit. Wouldn't make sense.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...MoP-Screenshot

    "Blizzard would have liked to do a 15 man raid size if they were starting from scratch today. However, for now they are sticking with both 10 and 25 man."

    MMO Champ transcribing interviews (doesn't say who said each quote, so maybe it wasn't GC himself) from other Blizz-sanctioned news sites. Doesn't say which quotes are from which sites.

    I realize it's not a direct source, but mmo-champ is credible, although I'd understand if you'd be skeptical / would consider the possibility of a transcription error (either by mmo-c or one of these other sites)

  10. #650
    the idea that 25 mans are harder then ten man and should be rewarded is just plain wrong 10 man is really hard 25man is easy this tier if you have
    1 dps who dies it is extremly hard to deal with it we only have 1 brez and every 25 man guild on my server has hardly any problems that 10 mans face with sertain
    bosse's if any thing reward 10 player raiders. i 2 heal the spirit guy in mv. the encounters are very wierd for me as a holy / disc priest this tier for 10 man raiding
    I'm 4/6 mv and first boss in heart of fear there needs to be improvements to both raid systems. Healyourmind on Perenolde 477
    Last edited by fireywrath; 2013-01-08 at 07:55 AM.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexxie View Post
    Fixed - If there were to be one size that fits in the middle, 20man would be it. Wouldn't mind, wouldn't like but meh.
    More likely to be 10 if done in the middle of an Xpac as that means smallest degree of disruption.

    However - there is no point getting rid of 25s; 10s are more popular and having 2 sizes splits the raiding community into two but 25s are the preferred size for LFR - which is what makes raid development worthwhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    The reason people don't raid 25 man is simply because it's easier to raid 10 (Not the content, just to set up) - Raising the ilvl would be one way to fix this, but that would cause a shitstorm of QQ on the forums from 10 man players (probably including myself lol).
    That's because there'd be too few players for 10s.

    I'm interested in what they're going to do about it, it's fairly balanced right now in terms of drops and difficulty, the difference is just how hard it is to set up. I don't see why they need to concern themselves with it too much tbh, guilds with the roster will do 25, guilds without it will do 10.
    Because the set up difficulties also mean fewer and fewer guilds form with that roster.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-08 at 10:00 AM.

  12. #652
    I've downsized my guild to 10 man because of logistical reasons halfway through Firelands. Imbalance on my previous realm caused any recruitment possibilities to disappear. It was taxing me personally, that's where I drew the line. I gathered my most skilled guildies that I knew weren't gold diggers and trusted enough and announced we downsized to 10s. Best decision ever. The current difficulty balance is just right for us. We progress at a decent pace and are competitive enough to be able to attract people when we need to. I like it, the team likes it. Same deal in Cataclysm. I don't intend to compete with 25 man guilds at all.

    Maybe 25 man guilds are disappearing because just like the game, the social interaction and motives are changing. The game is being designed around attracting a wider audience. An audience that might be less motivated to commit to the upkeep of a 25 man guild.

    I really hope that whatever changes they'll come up with won't force us out of our current situation. If that happens I think I have to tell my guildies to find a nice 25 man guild and the game ends for me there. I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is.
    Last edited by Bloodline; 2013-01-08 at 10:54 AM.

  13. #653
    The Patient Dranged's Avatar
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    I see so many suggestions in this thread, yet the only one I think would work is to revert back to the WotLK model of improved ilvl from 25m raids. Not completely different loot tables however, like it used to be, but identical loot with only the ilvl as difference. Kinda like we have with LFR today. I also think the shared lockout should be kept as it is.

    And there would be no need for the 10m-fanbois to whine about this since it rly wouldn't affect them or their own raiding one single bit. Their gear, achievements, progress would still be the same. And it's already been stated time and time again that 10m guilds are not competing in the same bracket as their 25m counterparts - there are 2 different races.

    This would in no way force 10m raiders to revert to 25m.

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Dranged View Post
    I see so many suggestions in this thread, yet the only one I think would work is to revert back to the WotLK model of improved ilvl from 25m raids. Not completely different loot tables however, like it used to be, but identical loot with only the ilvl as difference. Kinda like we have with LFR today. I also think the shared lockout should be kept as it is.

    And there would be no need for the 10m-fanbois to whine about this since it rly wouldn't affect them or their own raiding one single bit. Their gear, achievements, progress would still be the same. And it's already been stated time and time again that 10m guilds are not competing in the same bracket as their 25m counterparts - there are 2 different races.

    This would in no way force 10m raiders to revert to 25m.
    And been told many many times this is a stupid idea, your idea is stupid, and it will never happen. 25's need to stop bitching. You already gear faster than 10's. Yuo see more of a loot table than 10's. More forgiving if you lose people, more cooldowns, better chance at having all the buffs.

    Complain too damn much, 25's are fine. NOTHING needs to change.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Abyssion View Post
    NOTHING needs to change.
    Many people in this thread disagree. So does Blizzard, for that matter, so something is changing. We just don't know what.

    It has been pointed out a number of times that the advantages of running a 10-man far outweigh the difficulties in organizing a 25-man. The advantage in gearing speed (which is exaggerated by 10-man supporters, but downplayed by 25-man supporters) is not enough to offset the difference. Therefore, something needs to be done to equalize the two more and make 25s a more viable choice. I agree that it will probably not be an iLvl increase for 25s, as that will just swing things back the other way and 10s will start to die out like we saw in WotLK.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  16. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abyssion View Post
    And been told many many times this is a stupid idea, your idea is stupid, and it will never happen. 25's need to stop bitching. You already gear faster than 10's. Yuo see more of a loot table than 10's. More forgiving if you lose people, more cooldowns, better chance at having all the buffs.

    Complain too damn much, 25's are fine. NOTHING needs to change.
    You're just spewing out old shit again like a broken record on repeat. Also, you say "NOTHING needs to change". Sorry to break it to you kiddo, but blizzard themselves say otherwise, which is why this thread was created in the first place.

  17. #657
    I have subjected myself to about 25 of the current 32 pages in this thread, and I haven't seen the following suggestion to increasing 25 man participation:

    Currently, many servers might say medium population, but rarely do you see that many people online. I know Blizzard makes money from realm transfers, but in order to increase raid participation and recreate a sense of community, they could start by combining servers from similar timezones. Take low to medium population servers, merge the player bases (and guilds, banks....) to one server, and save the money by decommissioning the other server. Many realms don't support 25 man raids because of the ease of getting 10 mans together, and the population to choose from. Merging realms to make them high-population would help increase the player base to draw from for guilds looking to recruit/PUG, and provide options to people looking for either a 10 or 25 man guild. With the number of people proposing CRZ for 25 man raids only, I feel this only makes sense. Another advantage of making servers high-population and getting rid of those low-medium population servers is getting rid of the CRZ's. With a higher population, most zones should have a decent population playing in them, limiting those resources required. (And hey, while they're at it, get rid of the Random Dungeon Finder but not LFR and make people actually work with others on their realm or their guild, but that's a totally different topic about re-establishing a community within WoW).

    To take some of the logistical challenges out of a 25 man raid, the Cauldron should be brought back for them, along with creating feasts for 25 man creating 10 at a time for the increased mats. I know the mats are double the 10 man feast, but farming up the mats for a weeks worth of 25 man raids takes 3 full playing days assuming one person is making the feasts, and only 10 feasts are needed (16 farm plots, 5 veggies per pick). As for the cauldron, make it so that they can only be created in the raid instance by the raid leader, and the flasks are usable only within the raid instance. Take the onus off the alchemists in your group, and as the raid leader make people bring a flask each so that you can create 2. Hell, make the flasks last until you leave the raid instance, it's not like it matters that much.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by Dranged View Post
    I see so many suggestions in this thread, yet the only one I think would work is to revert back to the WotLK model of improved ilvl from 25m raids. Not completely different loot tables however, like it used to be, but identical loot with only the ilvl as difference. Kinda like we have with LFR today. I also think the shared lockout should be kept as it is.

    And there would be no need for the 10m-fanbois to whine about this since it rly wouldn't affect them or their own raiding one single bit. Their gear, achievements, progress would still be the same. And it's already been stated time and time again that 10m guilds are not competing in the same bracket as their 25m counterparts - there are 2 different races.

    This would in no way force 10m raiders to revert to 25m.
    If only that were correct. LK shows that viewpoint to be utterly wrong - players would flock to 25s in droves.

    EJL

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Dranged View Post
    This would in no way force 10m raiders to revert to 25m.
    It would make the 10 man "race" broken because some guilds would gear up in 25 man normal for the high item level gear, and then use that gear to progress faster in 10 man heroics, giving them an advantage over the people that wanted to only play their preferred format with their friends.

    If this happens it would be the end of serious 10 man raiding. I know I would quickly join a 25 man guild, have a little less fun, so that my progress could remain relevant.

  20. #660
    I hope they bring back higher ilvl as 25man, but not 2 lockouts.

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