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  1. #701
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arhippa View Post
    Mind you, it works both ways.
    Except that it doesn't. In 25m you get more battle rezes, more loot per person and a higher chance of having someone who can use that loot (which accelerates the rate that content is nerfed relative to your group over time) and much, much less executional responsibility per person. As the dev Taepsilum said recently in his example "10s are quieter and cleaner; people are more accountable"

    So you see, it doesn't work both ways. 25m will always be much easier to execute in-raid than 10m. There may be a bit more logistical (i.e. outside of raid) planning required but just remember, there is a reason that they have no 10m version of LFR

    In the end, you should play how you want to play and not really worry about how other people feel. If 25m feels right for you then stick with it. Some people just like more of a challenge.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
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    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Except that it doesn't. In 25m you get more battle rezes, more loot per person and a higher chance of having someone who can use that loot (which accelerates the rate that content is nerfed relative to your group over time) and much, much less executional responsibility per person. As the dev Taepsilum said recently in his example "10s are quieter and cleaner; people are more accountable"

    So you see, it doesn't work both ways. 25m will always be much easier to execute in-raid than 10m. There may be a bit more logistical (i.e. outside of raid) planning required but just remember, there is a reason that they have no 10m version of LFR

    In the end, you should play how you want to play and not really worry about how other people feel. If 25m feels right for you then stick with it. Some people just like more of a challenge.
    There you go again.
    You have 3 battle rezes for 25 people vs 1 for 10. It's more than fair since ofc you have that many people more along with bigger chances something will go wrong and bigger chances of random deaths mostly due to damage on the raid per person being higher in 25 man. What would you suggest, 1 res, 2? So you're wrong there.

    There's more loot per person only on heroic mode, not on normal. And that's small incentive that recognized the effort needed. Since it's only heroic loot and increase per person is whooping 4% more you're again very much wrong.

    There's more executional responsibility on any hard 25 man heroic boss. You can't afford a single mistake or death, if you do you're gone just as same as on 10 man. Do you even understand how much harder is to organize the raid, tasks and get 25 people to work as one unit and allow not a single mistake? No you don't cos you never did it. So again, you're wrong.

    So yeah, 25 man boss of the same difficulty as 10 man boss will always be harder to execute and that will never change. Logistical effort in the raid is uncomparably higher than in 10 man raid cos yes, this time you're right 10 mans are more quieter and cleaner, easier to manage. Go and look how Ragnaros 25 heroic Phase 4 looks and how much effort, communication and teamwork between 25 people is needed to get it executed.

    Reason they have 25 man LFR and not 10 is that they know 90% of LFR population will be afk or incompetent and that will not work in 10 man LFR, that's the only reason and devs already said it.

    In the end can I ask you do you know why the best guilds, best and most dedicated players raid 25 man? By the best I mean best of the best. Paragon is one of them and they stated they would rather raid 25 man but they can't atm. Reason is because it's challenging. They want to be the best on the hardest content cos they want recognition and satisfaction which they won't get if they do it in 10 man.

  3. #703
    The Patient Dranged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    There you go again.
    You have 3 battle rezes for 25 people vs 1 for 10. It's more than fair since ofc you have that many people more along with bigger chances something will go wrong and bigger chances of random deaths mostly due to damage on the raid per person being higher in 25 man. What would you suggest, 1 res, 2? So you're wrong there.

    There's more loot per person only on heroic mode, not on normal. And that's small incentive that recognized the effort needed. Since it's only heroic loot and increase per person is whooping 4% more you're again very much wrong.

    There's more executional responsibility on any hard 25 man heroic boss. You can't afford a single mistake or death, if you do you're gone just as same as on 10 man. Do you even understand how much harder is to organize the raid, tasks and get 25 people to work as one unit and allow not a single mistake? No you don't cos you never did it. So again, you're wrong.

    So yeah, 25 man boss of the same difficulty as 10 man boss will always be harder to execute and that will never change. Logistical effort in the raid is uncomparably higher than in 10 man raid cos yes, this time you're right 10 mans are more quieter and cleaner, easier to manage. Go and look how Ragnaros 25 heroic Phase 4 looks and how much effort, communication and teamwork between 25 people is needed to get it executed.

    Reason they have 25 man LFR and not 10 is that they know 90% of LFR population will be afk or incompetent and that will not work in 10 man LFR, that's the only reason and devs already said it.

    In the end can I ask you do you know why the best guilds, best and most dedicated players raid 25 man? By the best I mean best of the best. Paragon is one of them and they stated they would rather raid 25 man but they can't atm. Reason is because it's challenging. They want to be the best on the hardest content cos they want recognition and satisfaction which they won't get if they do it in 10 man.
    I applaud your patience mate Trying to make mentally challenged people like this Espe see reason is a real sisyphean task.

    Infracted~
    Last edited by Aciaedius; 2013-01-12 at 02:04 AM.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post

    There's more loot per person only on heroic mode, not on normal. And that's small incentive that recognized the effort needed. Since it's only heroic loot and increase per person is whooping 4% more you're again very much wrong.


    No it's not. All 25 modes drop 6 items wheter it's normal or heroic. 4% more means you raid gears faster. period.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    No it's not. All 25 modes drop 6 items wheter it's normal or heroic. 4% more means you raid gears faster. period.
    Did I say it's not faster? It is, a whole 4% faster. And that's the only benefit at the moment.

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Dranged View Post
    I applaud your patience mate Trying to make mentally challenged people like this Espe see reason is a real sisyphean task.
    Agreed, I see his misinformation pop up in nearly every thread with an inkling of 10 vs 25 debate. I feel like he's got an RSS feed for these things so he can poke his head in, say something about "refer to sig" and then stick his head in the sand whenever anyone with a shred of intelligence or common sense refutes his out of context signature and debunks his entire "theory". I don't personally have the patience to go through and continually tell him why he is wrong, but I am glad some folks do. It's certainly a herculean effort to clean out the information pollution that he spews.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Except that it doesn't. In 25m you get more battle rezes, more loot per person and a higher chance of having someone who can use that loot (which accelerates the rate that content is nerfed relative to your group over time) and much, much less executional responsibility per person. As the dev Taepsilum said recently in his example "10s are quieter and cleaner; people are more accountable"

    So you see, it doesn't work both ways. 25m will always be much easier to execute in-raid than 10m. There may be a bit more logistical (i.e. outside of raid) planning required but just remember, there is a reason that they have no 10m version of LFR

    In the end, you should play how you want to play and not really worry about how other people feel. If 25m feels right for you then stick with it. Some people just like more of a challenge.
    This post/poster are quite hilarious. It's pretty obvious you have an agenda based on that lulz-worthy signature that leaves out the part where they're referring to LFR.

    First of all, the quote you say Taepsilum said, was actually a quote from some random poster on the forums who HE quoted, saying it was a reasonable argument against 10 man LFR.

    All of your arguments presented are based on Looking For Raid, hopefully you understand that they are completely irrelevant to normal and heroic (real) raids.

    [E] - Should have listened to previous posters and looked at his post history. What a joke.
    Last edited by Dubalicious; 2013-01-11 at 05:36 PM.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    Ideally I'd love to go to 15 man raids, which scales up perfectly from 5 mans (1 tank 1 healer 3 DPS - 3 tanks 3 healers 9 DPS), but that probably won't happen.
    I think this is a great idea!

  9. #709
    I don't know why people bother arguing about 10 v 25. I have 16/16H experience in both 10 and 25s this tier and it is clearly evident that which one is harder is dependent on the mechanics and tuning of the fight. Trying to assign a collective value to the overall tier is completely ridiculous as there is no clear way to summarize the difficulty of 16 encounters. The difference between either world first 16/16H clear was less than 2 hours over the course of 2 weeks.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunba View Post
    I don't know why people bother arguing about 10 v 25.
    People get off on all kinds of things /shrug

    I would actually enjoy the 10/25 debate/discussion, but it's impossible to enjoy when there are completely unreasonable people involved.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    Ideally I'd love to go to 15 man raids, which scales up perfectly from 5 mans (1 tank 1 healer 3 DPS - 3 tanks 3 healers 9 DPS), but that probably won't happen.

    Except 25 mans don't have 5 tanks 5 healers and 15 DPS

  12. #712
    Mechagnome Arhippa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Except that it doesn't. In 25m you get more battle rezes, more loot per person and a higher chance of having someone who can use that loot (which accelerates the rate that content is nerfed relative to your group over time) and much, much less executional responsibility per person. As the dev Taepsilum said recently in his example "10s are quieter and cleaner; people are more accountable"

    So you see, it doesn't work both ways. 25m will always be much easier to execute in-raid than 10m. There may be a bit more logistical (i.e. outside of raid) planning required but just remember, there is a reason that they have no 10m version of LFR :)

    In the end, you should play how you want to play and not really worry about how other people feel. If 25m feels right for you then stick with it. Some people just like more of a challenge.
    Fine, I'll bite. I realize this is quite likely to be a waste of time, but I'll give it a chance.

    In that "mind you, it works both ways" I was actually saying that sometimes 25mans have the easier time, but whatever, let's treat it as if I said what you think I did. As someone who has done both 10 and 25 heroic progressing not too long ago, yes it does. Some stuff is easier in 10 mans, some easier on 25 mans and some stuff is a piece of cake or hard as hell in both raid sizes.

    There definitely is a reason why 25man is the only LFR size we have, and the blues have answered it. You've probably seen it too, judging by your signature. Your other posts have been suggesting that you only read what you wanted to read in it, though.

    You really should open your eyes for more ideas and just admit that sometimes 25mans have the harder boss. Not always, definitely not always, for example tier 11 was clearly harder overall for 10mans. But every now and then, it's the other way around. And you know what ? There's more! Sometimes it's actually relatively balanced between the two. Amazing, I know, but it's true.

    Don't worry, I have been going for the size I prefer regardless of what others think about it, and so should everyone else as well. But I still think you really should drop the provocation. It's not adding anything to the discussion, you just want to see people rage.
    In Soviet Russia, you loot to raid.

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  13. #713
    how is this thread still a thing?

    Warning: don't post off topic comments like that. -Azshira
    Last edited by Azshira; 2013-01-12 at 02:15 AM.

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    how is this thread still a thing?
    It's a compelling and interesting topic. It's also controversial and pertains to a subject that many people are opinionated/passionate/emotional about.

    How would it NOT still be a thing?

    I expect it to be a thing until the actual announcement is made, and the we'll have a new thing.

  15. #715
    GC sees that 25man guilds seem to be dying, and 10man guilds are getting more popular than ever, and so they're looking for ways to make 25mans more rewarding or something, hence the 'controversial' part. Seems justifiable, 10man guilds do seem to be extremely common nowadays.

    So, Guilds going to 10man gives you the impression that it is easier. Blizzard doesn't appreciate that, as they want both difficulties to be even. Not rocket science is it?

  16. #716
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunba View Post
    I don't know why people bother arguing about 10 v 25. I have 16/16H experience in both 10 and 25s this tier and it is clearly evident that which one is harder is dependent on the mechanics and tuning of the fight. Trying to assign a collective value to the overall tier is completely ridiculous as there is no clear way to summarize the difficulty of 16 encounters. The difference between either world first 16/16H clear was less than 2 hours over the course of 2 weeks.
    This is exactly the whole case in a nut shell. People still think, they can compare the 2 raid sizes. Most of the people who post, have never done either 10 or 25. Anyone who raided Heroic DS, will clearly remember, how some bosses were a lot harder on 25 man and some bosses a lot harder on 10 man. It's the same this Tier and when the Tier is over, we'll be able to see that through numbers too.

    This whole thread is nothing but a 10v25 flame fest and it serves absolutely no purpose.

    I do think, that something should be done to give 25 man guilds more incentive but at the same time, 25 man raiders are facing with the same issues as 10 man guilds were facing in Wrath; It's freaking hard to recruit.

  17. #717
    Moderator Azshira's Avatar
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    Let's try keep this post about speculation of the changes shall we. Less bashing. Cheers and happy posting.
    Proud Moderator of Raids and Dungeons.
    "You face not the Mod Hammer alone, but the infractions I command."

  18. #718
    All in all. Changes that will revitalize 25 man guilds are incoming and what Blizzard has in mind is controversial. Wish we could get some more info about it...

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    LOL I totally read that as "This is going to cause a shitstorm and we don't want to fuck up our vacation. Come back later"

    One thing it probably isn't, given that he said it was going to be "controversial" is removing the shared lockout. Or higher iLvl gear. Those are things people are expecting and/or want to see.

    Gonna be fun to see what they spring on us, if for no other reason than to laugh at the table-flipping.
    things u mentioned are exactly extremely controversial and divide opinions greatly witch is exactly why they were originally removed

  20. #720
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakoes View Post
    Guilds going to 10man gives you the impression that it is easier.
    It may be someone's impression, and GC even has said that the believes 25m is logistically (i.e. outside of the raid instance) more demanding.

    However, no one can argue that 25m is in any way harder than 10m once you actually step into that raid instance. This is what the devs have stated over and over again, and this is obviously how it works. If you like raiding 25m, that's great. As I said before, some people simply prefer more of a challenge. 25m is there for people who want less executional responsibility per person, more drops per boss and an easier time gearing as well as multiple battle rezes to give you a nice cushiony pillow in case you somehow manage to mess up what little responsibility you have in a 25m environment.

    There is a reason we don't have 10m LFR
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

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