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  1. #721
    Out of curiosity, what level of experience/progression in 25 mans do you actually have to base your comparisons on?

  2. #722
    Bloodsail Admiral Giants41's Avatar
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    Honestly im all for them going back to the system in Wrath. 25 mans are dead.
    Wow <3 Korra<3 Giants<3

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Giants41 View Post
    Honestly im all for them going back to the system in Wrath. 25 mans are dead.
    i really hope this wont happen cos it will force us running 25man for better gear and thats not my issue my issue is with my crappy pc that doesnt handle the spell effect mush of 25mans very well :P

  4. #724
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    Seperate achievements and lockouts for a start. I really find it funny how some people are arguing against pure facts. No, 10 man is not harder.

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by zuluslayer View Post
    Seperate achievements and lockouts for a start. I really find it funny how some people are arguing against fact pure facts. No, 10 man is not harder.
    its actually a fact that theres very little if any difference in difficulty 10man vs25man, why some ppl would argue 10man is harder? 1 combat ress more strain on ur healers and bigger responsibility for a single person.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by zuluslayer View Post
    Seperate achievements and lockouts for a start. I really find it funny how some people are arguing against pure facts. No, 10 man is not harder.
    On certain fights 10 man is harder.
    On certain fights 25 man is harder.
    When one of the 2 is significantly harder it is more times the 10 man version.
    This is a fact don't argue it.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    On certain fights 10 man is harder.
    On certain fights 25 man is harder.
    When one of the 2 is significantly harder it is more times the 10 man version.
    This is a fact don't argue it.
    First two are facts, the third is subjective. However, I don't think you'll be able to get a consensus as to which fights are harder in which format.

    Quote Originally Posted by zuluslayer View Post
    Seperate achievements and lockouts for a start.
    Made that way for various reasons. Separate lockouts, for example, cause pressure for thsoe who feel obliged/forecd to run them both and create balance and longevity issues for Blizzard.

    EJL

  8. #728
    Haven't read the whole thread.
    My philosophy in that question relates to numbers of mouths on the certain pieces of gear.
    In fact, 25 ppl as far as 10ppl are having a problem with sharing the loot equally. It means that, if Boss drops 3 items and all of them are equal/related to certain class/spec, it may be a gearing of the single person. And if 10ppl would not argue against over geared restoration druid because of his luck on boss drop, no one would be happy that 6 druids(assuming 2 trees and 4 owls, which is mad) from 25ppl took all the gear people were waiting for the whole week.
    Same thing for tokens.
    And I'm not relating for the situations where Council loot just gearing up two guild master's schoolmates(lol, is that possible in 25?) or two best players(which we may assume by looking at Koilie or TV@Vodka, two shadow priests who were overgeared firstly to break some dust because there was a guarantee that such a Pro's will unlock the potential of the epics from the first week). That is truly a respectful position and should not being debated.

    Just imagine that every boss in 25ppl will give 1 cloth(including spirit gear), 1 leather/mail(including intelligence gear), 1 plate(including intelligence and tanking gear) and 1 ring/neck/trinket?
    This system will always work for at least 3 players, and for 10ppl it is going to be too fat. For 25ppl it sounds pretty legit since even if they are hard-gearing the one person, he may get only 1 piece of gear and 1 jewellery item/trinket.
    Last edited by Minoan; 2013-01-12 at 06:51 AM. Reason: editing some mistakes, english is not my first

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    It may be someone's impression, and GC even has said that the believes 25m is logistically (i.e. outside of the raid instance) more demanding.

    However, no one can argue that 25m is in any way harder than 10m once you actually step into that raid instance. This is what the devs have stated over and over again, and this is obviously how it works. If you like raiding 25m, that's great. As I said before, some people simply prefer more of a challenge. 25m is there for people who want less executional responsibility per person, more drops per boss and an easier time gearing as well as multiple battle rezes to give you a nice cushiony pillow in case you somehow manage to mess up what little responsibility you have in a 25m environment.

    There is a reason we don't have 10m LFR
    What a load of bull.
    Some people prefer challenge? I already told you that's exactly the reason best guilds, best players, the most dedicated ones are playing 25 man. They want recognition and satisfaction of killing bosses on the hardest difficulty thus they chose 25 man format. They want challenge so they raid 25 man, period. Undisputable, undeniable, fact. Paragon stated they would rather raid 25 man but they can't atm.
    Yeah GC said that 25 man are logistically harder but he never stated that it's outside of the raid only. Do you really think 25 man is less logistically challenging than 10 man in any way? You should also add that GC said that 25 man is more complex, I don't think any sane person would argue that.
    If you scroll above I already explained how wrong you are about having less executional responsibility in 25 man, on any harder heroic boss you have more. Ragnaros 25 HC says hi to you if you ever did, which I doubt. I did both 10 and 25 when it was relevant content and difference is laughable.
    And reason why we don't have 10man LFR is cos 95% of LFR population have no clue what's going on and they need to be carried. It's exact the opposite on 25 man hc on hardest bosses, you can't carry a single person.
    Now are you going to actually respond with arguments or keep repeating same thing over and over again?

  10. #730
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    One of the reasons why 25-mans are slowly dying is because of server populations (now this is just my theory).
    Since WotLK release up to the beginning of 2009, they've opened up 11+ server in the US only (can't find anything if they opened up new ones after that but I remember them doing so). Only problem is that the amount of subscriptions haven't changed at all since that time, even dropped a bit since the peak.

    Only thing they can do now is to either allow cross-realm raiding or start merging those empty servers with higher population ones. On my realm there's 0 25 man guilds, since they all moved to higher pop servers during cata.

  11. #731
    I already told you that's exactly the reason best guilds, best players, the most dedicated ones are playing 25 man. They want recognition and satisfaction of killing bosses on the hardest difficulty thus they chose 25 man format.
    They do 25man as it's considered hardest due to it's history and most of these guilds have 25man tradition, takes a while to change those two. In reality formats seem pretty balanced overall this tier.

  12. #732
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khedgar View Post
    One of the reasons why 25-mans are slowly dying is because of server populations (now this is just my theory).
    Since WotLK release up to the beginning of 2009, they've opened up 11+ server in the US only (can't find anything if they opened up new ones after that but I remember them doing so). Only problem is that the amount of subscriptions haven't changed at all since that time, even dropped a bit since the peak.

    Only thing they can do now is to either allow cross-realm raiding or start merging those empty servers with higher population ones. On my realm there's 0 25 man guilds, since they all moved to higher pop servers during cata.
    Thank you. This does have a lot to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mixerii View Post
    They do 25man as it's considered hardest due to it's history and most of these guilds have 25man tradition
    Exactly. In reality it is much, much easier now to do 25m. There is far less executional responsibility per person in 25m, which the devs even admit. The legacy is what keeps 25m players in this state of willed ignorance where they actually believe that what they are doing is somehow difficult or has any ounce of prestige.

  13. #733
    omg guys can you stop it. This thread isn't even about 25 vs 10.

    On topic one thing i could consider controversial is to have 25 man exclusive content, like a 25 man only boss.

  14. #734
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodonpachi View Post
    omg guys can you stop it. This thread isn't even about 25 vs 10.
    The first sentence of this topic is "Any news on 25men raiding and incentives for them?"

    My argument is and always has been that they already receive a plethora of incentives. Some people just like the added in-raid challenge of 10m. I'm thinking their "controversial" new change will be to increase the difficultly of 25m to finally have it on par with 10m. Maybe take away brezes or drops per boss. Maybe tighten the enrage timers for the currently under-tuned 25m bosses, I don't know.

    I think Khedgar was on the right track with his hypothesis about server population being a predominant factor.

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    In reality it is much, much easier now to do 25m. There is far less executional responsibility per person in 25m, which the devs even admit. The legacy is what keeps 25m players in this state of willed ignorance where they actually believe that what they are doing is somehow difficult or has any ounce of prestige.
    Never read more bull in my life, look at pretty much every fight this tier.

    Extra dog, fire chains, puddles
    Resonance, wild fire.
    Spirit world.
    Shields, shadow trails, cowardice, pillage, rain of arrows.
    Soaking on elegon.
    Sparks & dancing.

    Attenuation, f&v.
    Blade lord stacking, tornado positioning, tornado dodging
    Garalon is pretty equal.
    WL is pretty equal on heroic at least.
    Constructs.
    Dissonance, kiting, trap stacking, visions.

    Dispels, interrupts.
    Nightmares, sunbeam, LoD, Sun breath.
    Lei shi is pretty equal
    Sha is pretty equal.

    So let's see, that's 3 fights out of 16 that could be considered equal in terms of individual responsibilities on 25 man. 25 man is harder to organize, harder to maintain and harder to execute. To top it off, name me one fight on 10 man that's been harder due to mechanics and not output checks. I can only recall one which was beth'tilac in 10h. Oh and Hagara, that's basically it though.
    Last edited by Dumbfoundead; 2013-01-12 at 01:46 PM.

  16. #736
    wait wait ur saying that 25 persons dont have easier time on dispells and interrupts?

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    The first sentence of this topic is "Any news on 25men raiding and incentives for them?"

    My argument is and always has been that they already receive a plethora of incentives. Some people just like the added in-raid challenge of 10m. I'm thinking their "controversial" new change will be to increase the difficultly of 25m to finally have it on par with 10m. Maybe take away brezes or drops per boss. Maybe tighten the enrage timers for the currently under-tuned 25m bosses, I don't know.

    I think Khedgar was on the right track with his hypothesis about server population being a predominant factor.
    No, people raid 10 man cos they find them easier to manage and deal with. People that want true challenge and are really dedicated are in top 25 man guilds since they want to kill bosses on the hardest difficulty.
    And only added incentive to do 25 man is 4% more loot per person.

    And you mention tighter enrage just shows how ridiculous you are. Every single harder dps check boss had much tighter enrage timer on 25 man, every single one. It has been like that for ages now. Can you even dispute that, please try? Give us some arguments, waiting here.
    Just an example of last 2 tiers.
    DS, Ultraxion was dps check boss. Every single 25 man kill at start was barely making it. You kill boss as he enrages or if you have really good dps you killed it 1-2 seconds before. Go and take a look at Blood Legion, Method, Paragon kills. On 10 man world first Exodus killed it with 20-30 seconds left.
    This tier, Gara'jal. Take a look at Method, Blood Legion and all other first kills, raid dies as the boss die or you kill it 1-2 seconds away. Paragon world first they killed it with 20 sec left and they had someone dying even.
    But please, present your arguments about tighter enrage, would like to hear them.
    Last edited by Radalek; 2013-01-12 at 02:08 PM.

  18. #738
    Bloodsail Admiral Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    On 25 man, there's less individual responsibility, which means you have more time to DPS. Just look at logs, 25 man dps is higher than 10 man dps on practically every fight, due to less individual responsibility, and more cooldowns being stacked. And 6 healing 25 man is not underhealing. You need to look at the % of the raid being DPS, not the % being healers. in a 25 man, when 6 healing, 68% of the raid is DPS. In a 10 man, only 50% of the raid is DPS when 3 healing, and even when 2 healing (which is not really advised when progressing imperiel vizier or blade lord), it's still only 60% opposed to 68%, so ofcource dps requirements on 25 man will be higher, a bigger portion of the raid is DPS, and you get slightly more uptime in 25 man, and more buff stacking. (more stampeding roars = less movement, more lightning totems = more dps, etc)
    Got questions about Fire mages or want your logs analyzed? Feel free to PM me.

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  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    On 25 man, there's less individual responsibility, which means you have more time to DPS. Just look at logs, 25 man dps is higher than 10 man dps on practically every fight, due to less individual responsibility, and more cooldowns being stacked. And 6 healing 25 man is not underhealing. You need to look at the % of the raid being DPS, not the % being healers. in a 25 man, when 6 healing, 68% of the raid is DPS. In a 10 man, only 50% of the raid is DPS when 3 healing, and even when 2 healing (which is not really advised when progressing imperiel vizier or blade lord), it's still only 60% opposed to 68%, so ofcource dps requirements on 25 man will be higher, a bigger portion of the raid is DPS, and you get slightly more uptime in 25 man, and more buff stacking. (more stampeding roars = less movement, more lightning totems = more dps, etc)
    That's not because of less "individual responsibility" that's because of a) the certainty of having every raid buff and b) an increased amount of mini cds such as totem and skull banner. Oh and you're totally implying that 10 man isn't balanced around that, they don't scale linearly and percentage comparisons like that are pretty much void.

  20. #740
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    On 25 man, there's less individual responsibility, which means you have more time to DPS. Just look at logs, 25 man dps is higher than 10 man dps on practically every fight, due to less individual responsibility, and more cooldowns being stacked. And 6 healing 25 man is not underhealing. You need to look at the % of the raid being DPS, not the % being healers. in a 25 man, when 6 healing, 68% of the raid is DPS. In a 10 man, only 50% of the raid is DPS when 3 healing, and even when 2 healing (which is not really advised when progressing imperiel vizier or blade lord), it's still only 60% opposed to 68%, so ofcource dps requirements on 25 man will be higher, a bigger portion of the raid is DPS, and you get slightly more uptime in 25 man, and more buff stacking. (more stampeding roars = less movement, more lightning totems = more dps, etc)
    Exactly. These are the types of basic fundamentals that some of the more disillusioned 25m raiders don't seem to grasp. They have had their sacred cow of epics to milk for a while now and I could see why they would be reluctant to give it up in order to level the playing field.

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