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  1. #61
    Field Marshal FuriousLupus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moohorn View Post
    - More gear drops per person
    - More battle resses
    - Less personal accountability per person

    The only (and admittedly big) drawback to 25 man raiding is gathering the people. Seeing as how groups are already able to do so, I don't really see why they need anything else to make it easier / more attractive.
    This. It's already more beneficial to raid 25 man. The people that don't either can't find the people to do so, have a crappy computer, or simply don't like raiding with so many people.

    I hope so badly that they don't raise the item level of 25 man gear again. Doing so much work through all of WotLK to keep my 10 man guild going only to gain gear that was so inferior to the drops in 25 man was horrible.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    it wont be, too many of the top guilds raid 25man.

    there maybe more 10mans but they are all worse/less hardcore than 25's with the exception of paragon, it'll be controversial but i dont think they will destory 10's or 25's that makes little sense.
    From a business point of view, that's what? Not even a thousand people in these so called "top guilds". Meanwhile, at 10man/LFR mode....

  3. #63
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    They might just massively decrease the difficulty of 25man compared to 10man, in order to get people to do 25s instead of 10s.
    It will be a controversy because all the 10s who don't have enough people for 25man will QQ, and 25s who want a challenge will QQ because they would be forced to do 10man for the challenge.

  4. #64
    they making 25man lower ilvl then 10man!

    now that would be controversial!

  5. #65
    One thing I could see them doing to reward officers only for the extra difficulty is to give an extra elder coin 'loot roll' to whoever is raid lead when the boss goes down. Sure, it'll be 28g most of the time, but it's a nice little bonus for the organizer. Progression guilds would probably swap raid lead depending on who could benefit most from a given fight, but that's OK, they like this sort of complexity.

    It would not be an ilvl giveaway, but I can see how it would cause huge controversy.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by ohshift View Post
    From a business point of view, that's what? Not even a thousand people in these so called "top guilds". Meanwhile, at 10man/LFR mode....
    yup just piss off the most loyal/dedicated customers best way to have a good business rep and show u care and you're not just in it for the $$$$$. /sarcasm

  7. #67
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baalb View Post
    If they change the ilvls in 25 man, then they must lower the difficulty of 10 man encounters. Remember how it was in Wotlk? 10 mans were a joke. By doing this, they will effectively kill 10 man guilds as 10 mans will be absolutely puggable and be something you do with your low geared alts. Indeed however the key word here is controversial, which suggests that it will have something to do with loot. I'm guessing though that they will settle on exclusive 25 man mounts, achievements and titles.
    I can also see them removing all titles, mounts, and other cosmetic gear from 10s completely. This would be controversial as it would turn the more used format into the format that's for gearing only and would give all the prestige to 25s. Another potential controversial move would be to remove, or significantly reduce, valor from 10 mans.

    Making legendaries exclusive to 25 mans would also be included in the change most likely.
    Last edited by Kissme; 2013-01-02 at 04:52 PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by IpswichBlues View Post
    controversial.... that's the key word. I am guessing its higher ilvl items again. Which would suck.
    Dunno... The next question says :

    Could you give me a reason as to why 25man raids don't just straight up drop items that already are already 2/2 upgraded?
    Because that would cause progression-oriented 10 player raids to feel like they had to switch to 25s to benefit from the ilevel.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by IpswichBlues View Post
    controversial.... that's the key word. I am guessing its higher ilvl items again. Which would suck.
    They've already said they won't be doing that. I'd have to wager a larger ratio of gear to player drops.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    They might just massively decrease the difficulty of 25man compared to 10man, in order to get people to do 25s instead of 10s.
    It will be a controversy because all the 10s who don't have enough people for 25man will QQ, and 25s who want a challenge will QQ because they would be forced to do 10man for the challenge.
    nope i'd steamroll 16/16 25 hc in 1 night and laugh, 10's just dont work for me, atm im 10/16 hc 25man & 10man, having to do 10man during christmas break. theres not a lot of difference bewteen most fights so i dont get this lol 25 is harder 10 is harder, just people playing bad.

  11. #71
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    The #1 issue I see in all the posts is people are all posting from a personal opinion on what should be done. The issue with that is Blizz will look at it from "what makes us the most $$ and will have the least amount of impact on subs possible?". When you start seeing it from that point of view it's easy to see that "controversial" may be that it's a detriment to 25 man raid size as that would negatively impact the least amount of subs.

    Chances are when looking at the issue they will not want to chance pissing off the 10 man raiding groups as they account for allot more $$ coming in than the 25 raiding guilds at this time. We have to remember in big decisions like this they first look at what makes more sense $$ wise and then take the best solutions with the least money hit and use those!


    So even if you hate 10 mans and love 25 mans you have to look at the data and see what group are they more likely to negatively impact and take a gamble at loosing subs over and if I had to bet it would be that 25's were going to take a hit they don't like.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Any news on 25men raiding and incentives for them? Numbers of guilds still dwindling, you mentioned a developer blog?

    We have an idea, but it's a bit controversial so we're not ready to spring it on you yet.

    Previous blue post on this subject mentioned that they are not happy with the state of 25 man raiding at the moment and that they are looking how to add new incentives for it. All in all I think we should brace for some big changes incoming. Field is yours, what do you think it will happen?
    Removal of 25 mans...problem solved

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Saft View Post
    There never was a problem in wotlk with the ilvl difference the problem was 25m all the sweet items while 10m got the leftover shit, toc and icc are perfect examples.
    If higher ilvl from 25m is what Blizzard is planning I will welcome the chance.
    i remember there being a number of 10man items that were better itemized and preferable to heroic items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lagwin View Post
    Removal of 25 mans...problem solved
    removing 10 mans also works.
    Last edited by kosechi; 2013-01-02 at 04:46 PM.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  14. #74
    I'm just going to go with

    "Now, knowing our community, that will get misinterpreted"

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by IpswichBlues View Post
    controversial.... that's the key word. I am guessing its higher ilvl items again. Which would suck.
    I dunno Blizz seems to be falling back to the stance that more effort should equal more reward, though if that is the case one of the other idea's posed would be far more suitable than using ilvl to force people back into 25m.

    One of the suggestions he responded to was on the idea of making the gear in 25m drop as fully upgraded, which would essentially give 25m it's perk without diminishing the value of 10m as the only difference is that someone who does 10m would spend more time to obtain the same quality of gear due to the valor investment being required.

  16. #76
    I have two ideas.

    The first idea, 25M will be able to use coins for extra loot roles, similar to LFR, meaning they get more loot chances overall. This one seems a bit more of a stretch to me.

    The second and more likely idea, items that drop in 25M will get the first "upgrade" for free. Thus it's not that the 25M stuff has a higher ilevel then 10M (both, when fully upgraded, will be the same power), but that it's given that free upgrade meaning the 25M player has to invest less Justice/Valor.

  17. #77
    Would like to see them add legendary quality battle pets to 25 man HC bosses, and 10 man HC gets epic quality battle pets.

  18. #78
    25 man will geht higher itemlevel or 25 man will get removed. That's the only two ways to solve the problem. I think removing them would be the better way. They are obsolete, just like 40 man raids.




  19. #79
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baalb View Post
    If they change the ilvls in 25 man, then they must lower the difficulty of 10 man encounters. Remember how it was in Wotlk? 10 mans were a joke. By doing this, they will effectively kill 10 man guilds as 10 mans will be absolutely puggable and be something you do with your low geared alts. Indeed however the key word here is controversial, which suggests that it will have something to do with loot. I'm guessing though that they will settle on exclusive 25 man mounts, achievements and titles.
    10 man OS3D was harder than 25 by a significant amount while it was current content. You also have to remember that what made 10 mans so much easier in a lot of ways was they were tuned for 10 man gear, but most people had 25 man gear. If they keep the current shared lockouts but put 25 on a higher item level, you still won't end up with the WotLK dynamic as they can tune 10s on the assumption that those progressing through 10s won't have 25 man gear available during the progression period. The lack of shared lockouts made 10s significantly easier than they were tuned because you could gear both from 10s and 25s thus doubling your gear rate (not even including the ilvl advantage from 25s) for content that was also easier to organize and made most coordination and spacing mechanics easier.

    Going back to the WotLK model but keeping shared lockouts would allow 10 tuning to be better adjusted to the progression of those doing 10s.

  20. #80
    A lot of people seem to suggest "25 mans should have better loot."
    If that's the case, I would only agree for those members of the raid team who are not 1000000% pointless. That is, raid healers and non interrupting/ccing dps. Those 15 or so players who get carried and serve no purpose other than making up the numbers should get less than the poor tanks or tank healers who actually contribute to the kill.
    Being a mainspec dps and believing you actually benefit the raid is ridiculous. I can't imagine how many players on heroic garalon 25 are just there to dps and do NOTHING ELSE but still believe they are important.

    As for their rewards, 3 mounts when you'd get 1 on 10 man is a definite goal they should have. They should also bring in 25 man cauldrons and feasts to make things easier for larger raid teams (I'm talking 300 stat feasts btw). The cauldrons should take 5 of each flask but last twice as long to give a nice buff for 25 raiders. Finally, increase the gold reward for completing 25 man raid challenges to be around 5 times as much as the 10 man. It might not seem like much at first but over a year it'd add up.

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