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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Forcing people into 25 mans is stupid to you but current system forcing people into 10 man isn't?
    how is it?
    raids drop loot
    10man drops the same as 25man
    25man drops more.
    I fail to see how its "forcing people into 10man"

  2. #82
    High Overlord Sykezs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moohorn View Post
    - More gear drops per person
    - More battle resses
    - Less personal accountability per person

    The only (and admittedly big) drawback to 25 man raiding is gathering the people. Seeing as how groups are already able to do so, I don't really see why they need anything else to make it easier / more attractive.
    The biggest drawback to 25 man raiding is actually keeping a 25+ man roster together and not having them run off and forming their own 10 man with the best players of the 25 man and reaping the same rewards faster and more efficiently in 10 man. My old guild survived these "mutiny's" hundreds of times till my guild leader and officers realized "Why should we put hours and hours of time into recruiting for 25 man, when all we are actually doing is creating more awesome 10 man teams for the realm". They are now 10 man. It's so easy to keep a 10 man together...
    My Armoury 7/7 HC Firelands

    Currently specc'd "Non-Discipline" FUCK RAID MITIGATION CD'S WE ARE HEALERS

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    25 man will geht higher itemlevel or 25 man will get removed. That's the only two ways to solve the problem. I think removing them would be the better way. They are obsolete, just like 40 man raids.
    Ignoring the fact that 22 of the top 25 raiding guilds in the world are 25 man focussed.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    Remove it entirely please! Go to a single raid size and focus all your raid development time on making excellent bosses, tuned for a single raid size, rather than re-tuning for multiple raid sizes as well as difficulties.

    Ideally I'd love to go to 15 man raids, which scales up perfectly from 5 mans (1 tank 1 healer 3 DPS - 3 tanks 3 healers 9 DPS), but that probably won't happen. So just remove 25 mans and let's all go 10 man.

    Blizzard are just giving themselves way too much work trying to cater to a very, VERY tiny section of the playerbase. I mean, hell, the total number of raiders is a tiny, insignificant amount as it is... the number of 25 man raiders is even smaller.
    I agree with everything you said up until the last paragraph as killing 25m without creating a middle ground raid size would cause many people to abandon the game, many of those people who however be more susceptible to the idea of a standard 15 or 20m raid.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    They've already said they won't be doing that. I'd have to wager a larger ratio of gear to player drops.
    I don't think that could be it either. First, such a change would not be terribly controversial. Second, 25s already have a higher gear to player ratio and players are swimming in gear drops as it is now. If they push it too far out, 25s become mandatory for progression minded raiders (and no thats not not just the Top 100), which they have already used as a reason to specifically NOT implement some suggested "fixes", such as higher iLvl/partially upgraded gear.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by JuicedawgYO View Post
    That is how the minds of teenagers works, huge hypocrits, very special butterflys. You will most likely not make him understand your point, just saying.
    So thinking I am a teenager, without engaging me in conversation, thats sheer stupidity.

  7. #87
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    yup just piss off the most loyal/dedicated customers best way to have a good business rep and show u care and you're not just in it for the $$$$$. /sarcasm
    It's also impractical from the $$ standpoint. While the elite guilds are a very small % of your player base and numerically are unimportant from a revenue standpoint, they are important from a PR standpoint. People care about watching the elite play. They pay attention to world first races. If all the top PvP guilds got screwed at the same time and left they would also take a large amount of their fan base with them. Public good will and PR credit are not resources to be squandered. It's like the arena tournaments they broadcast. The number of people that play in them is minor compared to the investment and promotion costs, but they are meant for the audience more than they are for the participants.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    I don't think that could be it either. First, such a change would not be terribly controversial. Second, 25s already have a higher gear to player ratio and players are swimming in gear drops as it is now. If they push it too far out, 25s become mandatory for progression minded raiders (and no thats not not just the Top 100), which they have already used as a reason to specifically NOT implement some suggested "fixes", such as higher iLvl/partially upgraded gear.
    If you've spent anytime reading these forums or the official forums you should be aware that changing the color of the grass in Loch Modan would be seen as highly controversial to their vocal minority.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    So thinking I am a teenager, without engaging me in conversation, thats sheer stupidity.
    Your use of commas is sheer stupidity.

    XD

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Elysia; 2013-01-02 at 07:10 PM.

  10. #90
    For dungeons you need 1 tank and 1 heal for 3 damage dealers.
    For 10 man raids you need 2 tanks and 2 healers for 6 damage dealers. Perfect upscale.
    For 25 man raids you need 2 tanks and 4 healers for 19 damage dealers. This results in healers/tanks without a raid. Resulting them switching to damage dealers, missing in dungeons.

    25 man raids are a bad idea and hurt the number of available tanks and healers and put too much responsibility on too few tanks and healers.




  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Ignoring the fact that 22 of the top 25 raiding guilds in the world are 25 man focussed.
    Ignoring the fact that top guilds are fraction under the dust's toenail of the playerbase.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Ignoring the fact that 22 of the top 25 raiding guilds in the world are 25 man focussed.
    Who cares about 0,01% of the paying customers?




  13. #93
    Stood in the Fire rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    So, people do 10m because it's easier to assemble for the same gear acquired? No way!

    If they were that concerned with the loot, and can do 25, then what is the problem? That's their choice. If they can't do 25 because they legit can't get 25 people, then they do 10 and have fun with their friends anyway?


    in response to this comment, it is legitimately impossible on my server to get a 25 man team together of similar skill levels in order to progress on end game content, there no 25 man guilds left on my realm, and even trying to merge together is a no go, so i am forced into 10's while i prefer 25's and 40's back in the day, as to the topic at hand:


    lockouts are no longer shared (which means u can gear up as fast as the content will let you).

    seperate achievements for realm firsts and/or personal achievements section (like ulduar but plz god not soo many).

    as far as an ilvl increase goes, it may well be that the loot that drops on 25 may have 1/2 already upgraded so in essence better up front, but equal in the long term.

  14. #94
    Mechagnome Syenite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarella View Post
    ... They should also bring in 25 man cauldrons and feasts to make things easier for larger raid teams (I'm talking 300 stat feasts btw). The cauldrons should take 5 of each flask but last twice as long to give a nice buff for 25 raiders. Finally, increase the gold reward for completing 25 man raid challenges to be around 5 times as much as the 10 man. It might not seem like much at first but over a year it'd add up.
    This. The idea of reducing the stress created by hearding this many players is enough for many not to want it, myself included. Simply spewing rewards at the people who participate on 25 man doesnt seem like a very good idea at all.. forcing everyone wanting to be just a little competitive into that particular bracket.

    Another way of dealing with it would be placing 3 crystals, or something else, inside the raid increasing healing / dmg done by 100% by 2,3,4 w/e number of players to allow a little more flexibility when it comes to raid comp.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    I fail to see how its "forcing people into 10man"
    You missed the second part of that.

    25 man team progression slows down
    best players in 25 leave guild to form their own 10 to progress faster without having to carry anyone.
    Guild/Raid leader forced to recruit more people to keep up active roster
    Repeat pretty much forever.

    Eventually....

    Guild/raid leader gives up, drops to 10s only
    Anyone still wanting to run 25s forced to find another guild or run their own
    Increasingly harder (on some realms impossible) to find a new 25 guild as time goes on
    Player gives up and runs 10s
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  16. #96
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    For dungeons you need 1 tank and 1 heal for 3 damage dealers.
    For 10 man raids you need 2 tanks and 2 healers for 6 damage dealers. Perfect upscale.
    For 25 man raids you need 2 tanks and 4 healers for 19 damage dealers. This results in healers/tanks without a raid. Resulting them switching to damage dealers, missing in dungeons.

    25 man raids are a bad idea and hurt the number of available tanks and healers and put too much responsibility on too few tanks and healers.
    LOL what kinda setup is that? 10man normally uses 2/3/5. 25man normally uses 2/6/17. The number of bosses requiring a different setup than that is very tiny.
    Healers are very easy to place into raids, as their ratio is always higher compared to 5man in any raid size.

  17. #97
    This whole "gotta give something so people will do 25 man's" thing is entirely stupid. The "extra effort" required for 25 man raiding is really only felt by the guild/raid leader and maybe an officer or two. Want to give those individuals something...well fine by me - but the regular raider experiences ZERO additional effort raiding 25 vs. 10 man.

    25 man encounters more difficult? Depends on the encounter - some are actually more difficult in 10 man....depends on the boss. Besides, that's a encounter design issue that would be easily solved if Blizzard just grew a pair and returned to a single raid size (maybe ~15 people) so they could design appropriately.

    And PS...it's easier for bads to get carried in a 25 man raid than a 10 man raid....just as it was easier for bads to get carried in a 40 man raid vs. 25. I have experienced (as a raider and raid leader) all three formats in a progression guild so I know of what I speak.

  18. #98
    25man ilvl gets boosted. Paragon still at the top.

  19. #99
    Stood in the Fire grumpyoldman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Would like to see them add legendary quality battle pets to 25 man HC bosses, and 10 man HC gets epic quality battle pets.
    People who like battle pets but dislike raiding would cry that Blizzard is "forcing" them to do raids.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shottgunn View Post
    Your use of commas is sheer stupidity.

    XD
    forum name "shottgunn" nice spelling

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Elysia; 2013-01-02 at 07:11 PM.

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