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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    Who cares about 0,01% of the paying customers?
    Blizzard evidently do considering the shift in MoP is more towards the "focussed" raiding scene as opposed to the "casual" raiding scene. Believe me, these changes will be benefiting 25 man. Awaiting the tears from 10 man guilds already. Is this a late Christmas present from daddy Blizzard?

  2. #102
    Stood in the Fire rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    Who cares about 0,01% of the paying customers?

    lets see what happens to the game as a whole if the best guilds in the wrold just sddenly stopped playing, lets see how awesome and epic your gaming experience would be, here's a tip, it won't, without these guilds and these players, the encounters would not be the epic clusterfucks they are today, with such tight tuning in places designed to push players, without that, you get humdrum "anybody can do this shit" encounters that are boring and uninteresting, so yeah, blizz care about the 0.0001% of the playerbase, because it is the section that keeps the game rocking in the way that it does.

    to give an analogy, it is like running a hotel, the most important ppl aren't the hotel manager, or the snazzy decor, it is the cooks, the cleaners, the security guard, the "vocal minority" that keep things running properly, and keeps the guests the "vocal majority" aka "the whiners" paying and coming back.

  3. #103
    They should also bring in 25 man cauldrons and feasts to make things easier for larger raid teams (I'm talking 300 stat feasts btw). The cauldrons should take 5 of each flask but last twice as long to give a nice buff for 25 raiders. Finally, increase the gold reward for completing 25 man raid challenges to be around 5 times as much as the 10 man. It might not seem like much at first but over a year it'd add up.
    while this is a solution for t he more effort this is not what the community wants they want more loot, better loot etc. so even if there is a vendor at the start of 25 man raid who "sells" buff food and flasks for free they would still cry for more/better epics

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    You missed the second part of that.

    25 man team progression slows down
    best players in 25 leave guild to form their own 10 to progress faster without having to carry anyone.
    Guild/Raid leader forced to recruit more people to keep up active roster
    Repeat pretty much forever.



    Eventually....

    Guild/raid leader gives up, drops to 10s only
    Anyone still wanting to run 25s forced to find another guild or run their own
    Increasingly harder (on some realms impossible) to find a new 25 guild as time goes on
    Player gives up and runs 10s
    I would much rather play 25's than 10.
    However finding a guild doing 25's on my server is near impossible.
    Also, 25mans that I've been in personally have a tendency to contain at least 3 people who are shitter than shit and have to be carried.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Moohorn View Post
    - More gear drops per person
    - More battle resses
    - Less personal accountability per person
    You mean less battle resses, right?

    Lets say that average player fails on curtain encounter mechanics once per 10 pulls. Its 10% chance to fail per fight.
    The chance that at least one player will die in 25man is 93%. The chance that 3 players will die in the same fight is 80%.
    The chance for 1 player to die in 10 man is 66%.

    The chance for 2 people to die in the same 10ppl encounter - 43%.
    The chance for 6 people to die in the same 25ppl encounter - 64%.

    As you can see, you have significantly lower chance to wipe due to random fails in 10man.

    Also 6 deaths in 25man - is "casual" limit. I used it just as an example to match 10ppl dps to total raid members ratio.
    For hardcore 25 guilds on progression encounters one single dead player means that you won't make it. You have to wipe and start over.

    But its not all. On many encounters failing to do something means that you'll kill yourself AND you will kill people around you/wipe raid. The chance for player to fail and to wipe raid is significantly higher. Making learning curve considerably worse.
    Using the same math you can calculate the chance that one player out of 25 goes afk/have to open the door/answer important phone call/f*ck his gf/etc. During pool or between them.
    Due the same reason you'll get significantly less pulls/hour than in 10man.

    So LESS battle resses
    Less "personal accountability" but higher personal responsibility(to not wipe raid) due to significantly lower chance "to do everything right" for all 25ppl.

    It leaves us with "more gear". But there is no "more gear" on progression runs. You'll start to get more gear when other players already got something and you don't have to disenchant duplicates like you do in 10man. But on progression runs you don't have "duplicates" because no gear dropped for you yet. For first 3-4 weeks the difference in gearing speed is insignificant.
    But its true that if will get your BiS gear faster in 25man than in 10man. So if you are loot whore - 25man is definitely for you

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    Who cares about 0,01% of the paying customers?
    isn't that like arena? you hear/see/read posts/watch videos of the best 1% of the players.

    who has heard of the other 99% who cant make glad?
    all i hear is u care blizz makes money money money, fuck the best players MAKE MORE MONEY, this should make an awesome game just focusing on $$$$.

    using your theory.

    they should double subscription costs even if half the playerbase quits, they save money on customer support, servers and other things, leading to an overall profit, who cares about poorer people.

  7. #107
    Since they said it won't be pre-upgraded gear as drops maybe gear from 25man will be able to be upgraded 3 times?

  8. #108
    Mechagnome kojinshugi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    One thing it probably isn't, given that he said it was going to be "controversial" is removing the shared lockout. Or higher iLvl gear. Those are things people are expecting and/or want to see.
    No, that is totally not what the vast majority want to see. I don't want to run both every week, and while I'm currently in a 25-man guild, I don't want 10-man guilds to get worse gear. Making 25-man raiding the only reasonable avenue for BiS gear is not "incentivizing", it's forcing.

    The only reasonable thing about what you suggest is an ilevel difference that can be made up for with VP, similar to the Korean system.
    When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these?! Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!

  9. #109
    Why not have 25M drop upgraded gear.

    10M is 0/2, 25M is 1/2.

    In the end shit's same Ilvl, just takes 750 valor less to cap it for 25M players.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    Remove it entirely please! Go to a single raid size and focus all your raid development time on making excellent bosses, tuned for a single raid size, rather than re-tuning for multiple raid sizes as well as difficulties.

    Ideally I'd love to go to 15 man raids, which scales up perfectly from 5 mans (1 tank 1 healer 3 DPS - 3 tanks 3 healers 9 DPS), but that probably won't happen. So just remove 25 mans and let's all go 10 man.

    Blizzard are just giving themselves way too much work trying to cater to a very, VERY tiny section of the playerbase. I mean, hell, the total number of raiders is a tiny, insignificant amount as it is... the number of 25 man raiders is even smaller.
    I think 15 man is stupid, most semi casual guilds I've been inside had already problems gathering 10 stable ppl to raid and for 25 man serious guilds it wont feel as epic. So 15 man will basically kill both good sizes and create a stupid sized raid. I only do 10 man and have no problem if 25 drops better loot, I dont care what other ppl do Ill keep playin 10 man size.
    Last edited by Marooned; 2013-01-02 at 05:06 PM.
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  11. #111
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    how is it?
    raids drop loot
    10man drops the same as 25man
    25man drops more.
    I fail to see how its "forcing people into 10man"
    Because the majority of the bosses in the tier, and every tier prior since the existance of 10man, are easier on 10man. It's forcing people to go that route because it offers the path of least resistance. The slightly extra loot in 25man is not enough to bridge that gap.

  12. #112
    Mechagnome kojinshugi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    lets see what happens to the game as a whole if the best guilds in the wrold just sddenly stopped playing, lets see how awesome and epic your gaming experience would be, here's a tip, it won't, without these guilds and these players, the encounters would not be the epic clusterfucks they are today, with such tight tuning in places designed to push players, without that, you get humdrum "anybody can do this shit" encounters that are boring and uninteresting, so yeah, blizz care about the 0.0001% of the playerbase, because it is the section that keeps the game rocking in the way that it does.
    But we're not talking about progression guilds, who are doing 25 man anyway. We're talking about middle-of-the-road 25-man raiders who want to be artificially special again (because being 14th in DPS is not working out too well for you).
    When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these?! Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!

  13. #113
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    Why not have 25M drop upgraded gear.

    10M is 0/2, 25M is 1/2.

    In the end shit's same Ilvl, just takes 750 valor less to cap it for 25M players.
    You mean 12000 valor less, considering you need to upgrade every slot to catch up.

  14. #114
    What 25man players think will happen when 25man drops better loot:
    10man guilds "simply" switch to 25man and those who don't get enough new players either do fusions with other guilds or join existing 25man guilds. Casual players keep raiding 10man.

    What really will happen:
    Most Semi-Hardcore 10man guilds instantly disband, some players from these guilds join existing 25man guilds or new 25man projects. Hardcore Guilds try to upgrade to 25man but most will fail, those who can get enough players through recruitment or fusion disband during the first content. In the end there aren't really much people raiding at all and wow is even more dead than it is now.

    If Blizzard wants to discuss 25man they should change it to 16man and make it the "thing that matters" and change 10man to 8man for the casuals.

  15. #115
    Mechagnome kojinshugi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    Why not have 25M drop upgraded gear.

    10M is 0/2, 25M is 1/2.

    In the end shit's same Ilvl, just takes 750 valor less to cap it for 25M players.
    This. For important BiS items like weapons, this would allow for parity, whereas 25M would always have an advantage, and with halving the cost of full upgrading, it may actually be feasible to fully upgrade a BiS set before the next xpac hits.
    When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these?! Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!

  16. #116
    being forced to raid shitty no skill required easy 25man again ? no thanks rather quit the game

  17. #117
    Hopefully have separate lockouts for 10 & 25man mode or make some of the raids 10man only and the rest 25man only.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Because the majority of the bosses in the tier, and every tier prior since the existance of 10man, are easier on 10man. It's forcing people to go that route because it offers the path of least resistance. The slightly extra loot in 25man is not enough to bridge that gap.
    Then they need to make 10man harder, if it is different, which it shouldn't be, purely subjective.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    lets see what happens to the game as a whole if the best guilds in the wrold just sddenly stopped playing, lets see how awesome and epic your gaming experience would be, here's a tip, it won't, without these guilds and these players, the encounters would not be the epic clusterfucks they are today, with such tight tuning in places designed to push players, without that, you get humdrum "anybody can do this shit" encounters that are boring and uninteresting, so yeah, blizz care about the 0.0001% of the playerbase, because it is the section that keeps the game rocking in the way that it does.

    to give an analogy, it is like running a hotel, the most important ppl aren't the hotel manager, or the snazzy decor, it is the cooks, the cleaners, the security guard, the "vocal minority" that keep things running properly, and keeps the guests the "vocal majority" aka "the whiners" paying and coming back.
    Your post does not make a great deal of sense. Your analogy of "guys in the back making all the magic happen for the paying guests/customers" doesn't really apply to the "top guilds" for a start; they are paying customers. Also raiding as a whole is only experienced by a minority of players, I know when you are part of the minority looking out it seems players are either raiders or players who either want to be raiders or are intrested in raiding but most people don't give a shit. Even with easy mode LFR in the game raiding is still a minority. Maybe in TBC and to a certain extent WotLK you could make an argument for raiding content propping up the whole game, but the community and game are well past those days now. Hell, it's why we have a million daily quests these days, because raiding content cannot retain subs alone anymore.

  20. #120
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    I am going to bet on 25 bosses dropping charms.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

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