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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by kojinshugi View Post
    We're not talking about heroic raids. Most serious progression guilds do 25-mans anyway. We're talking about normal raiding.
    Who's we? And why are they only talking about normal raiding, when normal raiding is quite easy for a well managed group of players?

  2. #162
    I dont think higher ilvl is going to happen, Blizzard will be shooting themselves in the foot if they do that. I have a feeling its going to be something like 25 man only special mounts, achievements, etc.

  3. #163
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Croz730 View Post
    My thought would be that they will open current tier 25m raids to cross realm. It would really help people get enough players for a 25m team and at the same time offer no "nerf" to 10m as they already have their teams on their servers and could just keep doing what they are doing. While for 25m teams it would make it that much easier to fill a roster each and every week.

    To me this make the most sense as a way to help 25m raids and not hurt 10m raids.
    Some 25man top guild sends one player each to a different realm. Forms the raid, gets realm first on all 25 realms at the same time, denying it to everyone else. Could be fun.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    The fight Paragon killed with 3 healers and 2 tanks when every other 10 man guild said it was impossible with a 2 tank 2 healer setup? The same fight Paragon said had an "easy enrage timer"?

    I'm not going to say all 10s are easier, they are not but almost all of the time the enrage is not the difficult thing about 10 mans.
    *compares #1 guild in the world with the rest of raiders and thinks he's making a legitimate point*

  5. #165
    After reading some more, I wouldn't be surprised if they offered an NPC at zone in that supplied consumables (food, flasks, pots) that were only active in 25m setting. Would be a time saver for the 25m raid without providing an "edge" (assuming the buffs were the same as farmable ones for 10s), and having it set to 25m only would prevent 10s from zoning in on 25, grabbing buffs, then going to 10s and raiding.

    Also maybe a mass summon, since it seems like EVERYONE is late/afk at the start of our raids. Fuckers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  6. #166
    It has to be something that doesn't affect neither 10man or 25man, progression wise.

    Better ilvl, no. That will kill 10man.
    Better drops, no. I mean, that's already happening, 2/10 vs 6/25, 25man has a +20% better drop ratio than 10man. It also has the advantage of not wasting loot (more class diversity).
    Better vanity drop chance (mounts / pets), maybe. Not gamebreaking and somewhat usefull.
    Better VP reward, maybe. Not really a solution but, why not?, all know that 25s are logistically harder than 10s.}
    Exotic Bag of Goods, maybe. A raid version of "Small Bag of Goods" (dropped by rares on MoP), with some exotic rewards.
    Different lockouts, maybe.

    I don't know. The problem is that some people overgrown the game. Every high-end guild has a wide rooster where they can blind-pick people and still perform as they regulary do. Casuals guilds don't and spending time trying to gather good players is far away from being fun, that's why most don't do that.

    TL;DR. Casuals make 25s hard to sustain. Right now, 99% of WoW player base is (or is becoming) casual.
    Last edited by DungeonMaster; 2013-01-02 at 05:49 PM.

  7. #167
    Meh, I personally don't feel there is any need to further incentivize a format that doesn't seem popular enough to stand on its own merit. But, since this is a speculation thread, let's look at the loot tables and why I would not be betting on higher iLvL as the 25m perk.

    Depending on your raid format, there is the following:
    You have LFR that already gives: 476/483
    You have normal that gives: 489/496
    You have heroic that gives: 502/509

    There is a 7 iLvL bump from MSV to HoF/ToES, but there is a 13 iLvL bump from LFR to Normal and Normal to Heroic.

    If you added another 13 iLvL bump to account for a 10m vs 25m, then you would wind up with:
    LFR: 476/483
    10N: 489/496
    10H/25N: 502/509
    25H: 515/522

    With that said, in order for 25's to fairly offer higher iLvL than their 10m counterparts, then they have to be deliberately made harder than 10m and not just in terms of the logistics involved.

    Now, while there are undoubtedly many pro-25 people out there ready to go "HURR BUT 10M ARE ALREADY EASIER THAN 25M LOL!" there are just as many others that would argue that while there are pros and cons to both during the actual raids making certain fights easier on one or the other, the only thing that can always be said that is much harder on 25m is what happens before you even set foot into the raid:
    The logistics of herding 25 cats instead of 10

    But as that is a burden on the raid leaders/officers, and not the rank and file people that just log on in time to raid, the only way to fairly reward everyone with higher iLvL is to make the actual fights legitimately and clearly more difficult on 25's compared to 10's.

    But, that is not how Blizz has been approaching the two raid formats ever since 4.0, and while they can always revert a design philosophy if deemed necessary, it just seems strange they would abandon it all and revert back to Wrath era balancing just to preserve 25m like it some kind of sacred cow.

    So, naw, I don't see a flat higher iLvL from 25's unless they completely rebalance 25m vs 10m modes.
    Last edited by Deathgoose; 2013-01-02 at 05:46 PM.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    As i already said. I did 3 weeks of 25 man raiding at the start of this Tier. You are plain wrong. The 3 combat resses don't mean shit when the platforms for everything are crowded with people trying to avoid AoE. Resto Shaman with mastery are worthless in 25 man since people are not stacked up. Bosses like Windlord and the Vizier are a nightmare.

    Most of the people that tried going 25 man were good as well. Most of us are breezing through 10 man now with 7-8 heroic kills. I got the Will of the Emperor cutting edge over 2 weeks ago. 10 man are easy mode.
    10man only seems easier because you dont have to carry dead weight

  9. #169
    Calling it now, double lockouts for 25 man each reset. Afaik this was implemented in Korea for older content, clearly it was something they wanted "tested". I doubt it would be higher ilvl items, they wanted to remove the bloat from loot tables when they merged difficulties.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    The fight Paragon killed with 3 healers and 2 tanks when every other 10 man guild said it was impossible with a 2 tank 2 healer setup? The same fight Paragon said had an "easy enrage timer"?

    I'm not going to say all 10s are easier, they are not but almost all of the time the enrage is not the difficult thing about 10 mans.
    Paragon killed it with a disc priest smite healing, a guardian tank and a resto druid both using the pre-nerf heart of the wild (which was nerfed before almost any other 10m guilds killed it, making it even more difficult for them), and extremely high dps overall.

    I was implying that it was difficult because without a druid tank with that talent, and without a disc priest and a resto druid, you probably weren't going to kill that boss without getting a few more weeks worth of gear. 10 mans only had the issue due to limited rosters, 25 mans probably didn't even notice it.

  11. #171
    Raiding was raped for the last time with Cataclysm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Then the [MMORPG] genre started attracting more players. These players wanted more of a "game" and less of a "world" [...]

  12. #172
    Mechagnome kojinshugi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    As i already said. I did 3 weeks of 25 man raiding at the start of this Tier. You are plain wrong.
    I do 25-mans.

    The 3 combat resses don't mean shit when the platforms for everything are crowded with people trying to avoid AoE.
    Attenuation is ridiculously easy to avoid, and I don't see what number of players has to do with anything, since there's no collision in WoW. Everyone simply has to avoid the bright yellow circles, there's literally no difference between the two.

    Resto Shaman with mastery are worthless in 25 man since people are not stacked up. Bosses like Windlord and the Vizier are a nightmare.
    This is the dumbest thing I've ever read on MMO-champion. Cast HR on a melee group of 7-8, or a melee group of 3-4?

    Most of the people that tried going 25 man were good as well. Most of us are breezing through 10 man now with 7-8 heroic kills. I got the Will of the Emperor cutting edge over 2 weeks ago. 10 man are easy mode.
    So which is it, are you so, umm, casual that 3 CRs are not enough to deal with attenuation, or a badass heroic raider?

    I'll grant that some fights are really badly balanced for the two raid sizes. Will of the Emperor is much harder on 25 because adds have both double health AND there's twice the number of adds.

    But my point still stands - 25-mans allow for greater mechanical variety, but they're undertuned because the reality in almost every guild is that a good third of the DPS range from subpar to incompetent.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 05:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    Who's we? And why are they only talking about normal raiding, when normal raiding is quite easy for a well managed group of players?
    Because 99% of raiders do normals, and serious progression guilds aren't switching to 10M in droves. Paragon switched because half their raiders quit WoW, and they only recruit Finns.
    When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these?! Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!

  13. #173
    Separate achievements.
    "Realm First 10man..."
    "Realm First 25man..."

    Now that's controversial.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Some 25man top guild sends one player each to a different realm. Forms the raid, gets realm first on all 25 realms at the same time, denying it to everyone else. Could be fun.
    Well they would have to take out the in-game "Realm first" achieves IF you use cross realm, which is what makes it "controversial". I mean if you are not shooting for realm first then you really don't care about the achieve and if you are a guild going for world/realm first then you really don't need an incentive to continue raiding 25s.

  15. #175
    The majority of the Raids are 10M. Check.

    The majority of the playerbase complains for any reason without reason. Check.

    The majority of the playerbase that Raids, does so in 10M. Check

    Ergo the majority of the Raid complaints are from 10M raiders, for any reason, without reason.

    Higher Ilvl for 25s (10s cry)
    More drops for 25s (10s cry)
    1/2 Upgraded gear (10s cry)

    See a pattern? yeah, it's called Any Buff to your mode is a Nerf to my mode.

    10M players aren't willing to give anything up. The sooner Blizzard sees thru that, the sooner they'll be able to think of something disregarding the idiotic bantering of how 10M always loses even though it's winning.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    As i already said. I did 3 weeks of 25 man raiding at the start of this Tier. You are plain wrong. The 3 combat resses don't mean shit when the platforms for everything are crowded with people trying to avoid AoE. Resto Shaman with mastery are worthless in 25 man since people are not stacked up. Bosses like Windlord and the Vizier are a nightmare.

    Most of the people that tried going 25 man were good as well. Most of us are breezing through 10 man now with 7-8 heroic kills. I got the Will of the Emperor cutting edge over 2 weeks ago. 10 man are easy mode.
    At this point of the xpac, I would hope that a full guild group could breeze through 7 or 8 heroic kills. On my server thats pugged every week.

  17. #177
    One would think that WANTING to do 25-man (or 10-man for that matter) would be incentive enough to do it...but no.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by kojinshugi View Post

    Because 99% of raiders do normals, and serious progression guilds aren't switching to 10M in droves. Paragon switched because half their raiders quit WoW, and they only recruit Finns.
    Source/proof?

    99% of raiders do normals because they're required. If they weren't plenty of people wouldn't touch them. So there aren't MANY more "elite, progression-minded 10 man guilds" now than there were in TBC/Wrath?

    Just saying things doesn't make them true, especially when it's obvious you just made some things up to sound good and support your point.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Escapist View Post
    Two whole weeks ago? Well damn, that's like world first, or at least close... right? What's that? Any heroic boss in MSV is a complete joke now, your argument is terrible, and the fact that you only so recently killed it makes you sound bad?
    My argument is that people with decent skill are experience find 25 man harder then 10, is a joke? A bigger joke then 2 10 man players afraid they will get less for less effort?

    Quote Originally Posted by Escapist View Post
    ...Carry on with this warped idea that 10 mans are easy and you're amazing because you can plow through relatively old content with close to full BiS gear at this point, probably ignoring or skipping half the phases (lol@no phase 3 heroic elegon).
    10 mans are easier and they will always will be. 25 are hurting, because people like you choose to ignore this.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by noaim View Post
    One would think that WANTING to do 25-man (or 10-man for that matter) would be incentive enough to do it...but no.
    Clearly there is more that goes into it, or Blizz wouldn't be taking action. Blizz WANTS more people doing 25 man, plain and simple.

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