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  1. #181
    Deleted
    Ppl are doing 10mans, only because they will allways be bit easier and its so much harder to gather 25 skilled ppl than 10. Btw i raid both of them, mostly 25mans, but during off-raid raids we are doing 10mans. So i pretty much know diffrence between them.

  2. #182
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    As i already said. I did 3 weeks of 25 man raiding at the start of this Tier. You are plain wrong. The 3 combat resses don't mean shit when the platforms for everything are crowded with people trying to avoid AoE. Resto Shaman with mastery are worthless in 25 man since people are not stacked up. Bosses like Windlord and the Vizier are a nightmare.

    Most of the people that tried going 25 man were good as well. Most of us are breezing through 10 man now with 7-8 heroic kills. I got the Will of the Emperor cutting edge over 2 weeks ago. 10 man are easy mode.
    try killing the boss with an average ilvl of 475, but ehy gratz you are able to outgear the FIRST Instance now

    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    The fight Paragon killed with 3 healers and 2 tanks when every other 10 man guild said it was impossible with a 2 tank 2 healer setup? The same fight Paragon said had an "easy enrage timer"?

    I'm not going to say all 10s are easier, they are not but almost all of the time the enrage is not the difficult thing about 10 mans.
    The Fight where Paragon had an average ilvl of 485 when every other 10 man guild maybe had 470-475. Yeah it does make a HUGE difference
    Last edited by mmoc0fd79c8fc0; 2013-01-02 at 06:22 PM.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    LOL what kinda setup is that? 10man normally uses 2/3/5. 25man normally uses 2/6/17. The number of bosses requiring a different setup than that is very tiny.
    Healers are very easy to place into raids, as their ratio is always higher compared to 5man in any raid size.
    I'm rather surprised he used this argument against 25m--it's actually the chief reason we should support 25m. Getting more dps into a raid is absolutely the right thing to do. Blizzard should probably make 6m: 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 dsp. Qs would go down. However, now i'm also engaging in derailing the thread...

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    Remove it entirely please! Go to a single raid size and focus all your raid development time on making excellent bosses, tuned for a single raid size, rather than re-tuning for multiple raid sizes as well as difficulties.

    Ideally I'd love to go to 15 man raids, which scales up perfectly from 5 mans (1 tank 1 healer 3 DPS - 3 tanks 3 healers 9 DPS), but that probably won't happen. So just remove 25 mans and let's all go 10 man.

    Blizzard are just giving themselves way too much work trying to cater to a very, VERY tiny section of the playerbase. I mean, hell, the total number of raiders is a tiny, insignificant amount as it is... the number of 25 man raiders is even smaller.
    You won't likely see 3-tank fights.

  5. #185
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Resto Shaman with mastery are worthless in 25 man since people are not stacked up.

    Mastery: Deep Healing
    Requires Shaman (Restoration)
    Requires level 80
    Increases the potency of your healing spells by up to 24%, based on the current health level of your target (lower health targets are healed for more).

    What the fuck this has anything to do with the raid composition? In reality, shaman are much much better in 25 men, healing rain says hi.



    Most of the people that tried going 25 man were good as well. Most of us are breezing through 10 man now with 7-8 heroic kills. I got the Will of the Emperor cutting edge over 2 weeks ago.
    Will of the emperor is a fucking joke in 25. You can have 5 mages spamming ring of frost and forget rage's existence.

    10 man are easy mode.
    No.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 07:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    The fight Paragon killed with 3 healers and 2 tanks when every other 10 man guild said it was impossible with a 2 tank 2 healer setup? The same fight Paragon said had an "easy enrage timer"?

    I'm not going to say all 10s are easier, they are not but almost all of the time the enrage is not the difficult thing about 10 mans.
    Paragon had been doing 25 normal all this tier, showing in fact, that the more loot in 25 mode means that 10 men can't catch up with the raiding race.

  6. #186
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    The only thing I can really think of right now would be for it to drop more loot, but that wouldn't really be to controversial.

    25m drops more gold, more points, bags-o-stuff ala LFR (but with better stuff then just gold in them). Not really to controversial either (coming from my current 10 man perspective)

    The loot being higher ilev (sort of like 1/2 upgrade or something), same really. Not to controversial. Totally doable. Question then ofcause is what are the 25m raiders going to do with all their spare valor points.

    It would be much higher ilev (sort of like a possible /3 or /4 upgrade and possibly start at /2 ), that would be controversial I think.

    Removing the 10m lockout for 25m. I dont really know how this would work but I guess that would be controversial to. Not for the 25m but for the 10m people that would then be "forced" to band together with other 10's and alts to do them; "forced" since not actually forced but it would be done since nobody wants to waste possible upgrades/loot. This would be a slight curse for the 25m people then if they have to do both. It won't really affect me as a 10:er tho so I don't really care that much.

    Removal of 25m? Nah, it would be controversial. No doubt about that. I just dont see it; sure they removed 40m so it's not unheard of. Possibly I would prefer it then if they all just made it 15man across the board. One size fits all, one size to design for instead of two.

    Some unique only drop in 25m items; could be controversial even if its just some pure vanity item.

    25m dropping less/elder charms; possible. Wouldn't really be to controversial tho in my mind. It's not like they are hard or annoying to gather. Would save some time not having to do dailies etc but it eventually turns into a pointless "extra".

    Higher (weekly) VP cap for 25m vs 10m; that would be controversial I think.

    Shorter reset cycle (twice per week instead of once per week), could work. Becomes more or less the same as just dropping more loot tho except you have to play more.

  7. #187
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    Ditching of 25 mans and making 20 mans?

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    25's complaining that 10's are easier. Check
    Take your whine somewhere else
    Not once did I say that, I want to improve 25s, I'm not cockfighting to see which mode is harder, or reading is hard for you?

    Or is it that you believe improving 25 is offensive because it's fine the way it is, have you seen how 10M guilds are 5 to 1 ?

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    The majority of the Raids are 10M. Check.

    The majority of the playerbase complains for any reason without reason. Check.

    The majority of the playerbase that Raids, does so in 10M. Check

    Ergo the majority of the Raid complaints are from 10M raiders, for any reason, without reason.

    Higher Ilvl for 25s (10s cry)
    More drops for 25s (10s cry)
    1/2 Upgraded gear (10s cry)

    See a pattern? yeah, it's called Any Buff to your mode is a Nerf to my mode.

    10M players aren't willing to give anything up. The sooner Blizzard sees thru that, the sooner they'll be able to think of something disregarding the idiotic bantering of how 10M always loses even though it's winning.
    That goes both ways though. It is just the reverse of the complaints that came from 25-man raiders when the Cata changes were first announced. A lot of people said that participation in 25s would plummet almost to non-existence if both formats shared loot and lockouts. At the time, they were told that they were wrong or overreacting. A little more than 2 years later and exactly what was predicted has come about.

    Now, the people who raid 10s are worried that Blizzard will overcorrect and we will end up in a situation just like WotLK, where 10s were considered an inferior format in pretty much every possible measurement, and people will feel forced to run 25s. And, just like the 25-man raiders before Cata, they are being told they are wrong or are overreacting. When really they aren't, just like the 25-man raiders weren't. Any change that deals with character power, if significant enough to have any effect at all, would cause a drastic shift back to 25s, as they would now be considered required in order to maximize your character's potential.
    Last edited by Gurbz; 2013-01-02 at 06:33 PM.
    I found I enjoyed the game significantly more when I stopped paying attention to all the people on the forums telling me how much I am supposed to hate it
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.

  10. #190
    Deleted
    25s have alrdy easier bosses and more loot per raider. Why should they get something more?

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Isopahajuho View Post
    Why should they get something more?
    Blizzard want more people raiding 25 mans.

  12. #192
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    Blizzard want more people raiding 25 mans.
    Yeah, why they want it's still unknown since only 0,01 of the subs want to raid in 25 mode.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    Will of the emperor is a fucking joke in 25. You can have 5 mages spamming ring of frost and forget rage's existence.
    no that was fixed. 10man emperor is hilariously easy.

    done both on heroic 10man was just lol, while 25man is chaos with double the adds and 15 more people, so much more to coordinate.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 06:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Isopahajuho View Post
    25s have alrdy easier bosses and more loot per raider. Why should they get something more?
    opinion =/= fact sry.

  14. #194
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    Yeah, why they want it's still unknown since only 0,01 of the subs want to raid in 25 mode.
    0.01

    =-)

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Isopahajuho View Post
    25s have alrdy easier bosses and more loot per raider. Why should they get something more?
    Wow, what a great argument. Definitely can't poke any holes in this one.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Blizzard evidently do considering the shift in MoP is more towards the "focussed" raiding scene as opposed to the "casual" raiding scene. Believe me, these changes will be benefiting 25 man. Awaiting the tears from 10 man guilds already. Is this a late Christmas present from daddy Blizzard?
    MoP has more casual content than Cataclysm and WotlK combined... what are you talking about?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 07:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    0.01

    =-)
    Only in USA
    Atoms are liars, they make up everything!

  17. #197
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    0.01

    =-)
    I'm italian, in most of europe we use 0, and 1.000

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Gsara View Post
    I dont think higher ilvl is going to happen, Blizzard will be shooting themselves in the foot if they do that. I have a feeling its going to be something like 25 man only special mounts, achievements, etc.
    That is not really controversial (though of course the guy who said players would argue about the grass changing color in Loch Modan was right).

    A bit controversial would be removing the lockout, period, and doing nothing but perhaps adding achievements to the 25m raids. That would give the "officer sorts" the reason to do 25m (gear faster) while sticking to 10m (for progression). It's hard to imagine they want us to burn out and gear faster, though. Probably they'd need to reduce the drops in 25m if they did this.

    Really controversial would be i-levels to which they said no. Destroying 25m would be impossibly controversial. Buffing i-level and boss strength for 25, would perhaps not destroy 10m, would probably not be just a "bit controversial". It also rather defeats the best part of 25m: that you can take weaker players just to fill in a slot.

    Here's a guess: All loot changed to LFR style. You have a chance at 10m loot and a chance at 25m loot--clearly the chances of getting loot in 25m are higher. You can't trade loot. Charms can only use them once per boss/week.

    It's a great way to get weaker players back in to 25m since the "officer types" will be willing to build the raids just to get extra shots at loot over the course of a raid tier. I can't speak to it myself but I think the hardmode folks would be OK with this: it intensifies their cycle but shortens it. More raiding in the short run, but the farming will be done sooner.

    And you'll still get geared fine if you don't do this.

    More to the point, it would bring back Monday night 25m puggin' for a lot of folks. Why not try for a second chance at your trinket?

    Edited because I made my example as confusing as I was able--now it's merely unclear.
    Last edited by Demeia; 2013-01-02 at 07:33 PM.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    The following post is my interpretation/wish, as a 25m HC raider:

    I am hoping that it is simply pre-upgraded (either 1/2 or 2/2) items. Seems to be the most logical, as it would simply be a head start for 25mans, not an entire leg-up over 10s. 10man would still be able to get to the gear level of 25, and in the end everyone would be on an equal playing field.

    That said, that idea makes far too much sense and is too balanced and fair to be considered controversial OR to be implemented by Blizz (given their current track record). Adding in extra loot drops would be pointless, as 25s are already swimming in loot for the most part. Less personal accountability via slacker tuned encounters would really water down 25mans, though we do have to carry a lot more slack to begin with. Unless it's something else out of left field, I'm not sure what they could change...

    Personally, I'd also be on board for the one-size 15man train. 10man roster just isn't big enough to get the "community" feel that a 25 group has, but it is certainly far easier to field 15 good players than 25. It would also allow for better raid development (as stated prior) and better tuning of encoutners, I would believe. As a lover of 40mans in Vanilla, I was sad to see the "small" 25man raids at first, but the game has moved in that direction, and I feel that 15 would really be a sweet spot going forward. Add that to the list of "Things that should happen that won't"...
    I see all of this 15 man banter, if this happens, I called this in TBC. It's taken a few years, but honestly, all I can say is LMAO.

  20. #200
    Deleted
    Mayhaps they are going to put GMs doing the officer work of 25 raids.

    Or when you zone in the raid you get into a random 25 ID missing people, so you have to raid that save with them.

    Hey, at least this was not the same damn post and ideas over and over again.

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