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  1. #781
    Quote Originally Posted by tjok View Post
    Losing one man in 25 man = wipe isn't true now and it wasn't true in cata either. Both Vodka and Method had deaths on their first Gara'jal kills for example and they still managed to kill him. You can check their videos on youtube if you dont belive it.
    It's also funny how the guy in Blood Legions world first Protectors movie was dpsing the wrong target for over a minute, could you get away with such a stupid misstake in 10man? Not a chance.
    Really? Take a look at Paragon Will heroic world first kill. They lost 2 people and didn't bother to record a kill at first and then the boss just died. Took them total of 18 tries or something. They killed Gara'jal after losing a person as well with 20+ seconds left on enrage. Every single first 25 man kill was at the last possible second.

  2. #782
    Quote Originally Posted by tjok View Post
    Losing one man in 25 man = wipe isn't true now and it wasn't true in cata either. Both Vodka and Method had deaths on their first Gara'jal kills for example and they still managed to kill him. You can check their videos on youtube if you dont belive it.
    It's also funny how the guy in Blood Legions world first Protectors movie was dpsing the wrong target for over a minute, could you get away with such a stupid misstake in 10man? Not a chance.
    Check world first Paragon 10man Will of the Emperor-Heroic, they also had dead people and managed to finish it. And that was a world first!! on the very first week those heroics were available!!

    But Anyways I prefer not to talk about world first race and talk about people like us who raid for fun, challenge and etc. Both 10m and 25m raids are really hard, but the effort of managing a guild with 25 active raiders needs some more incentives which honestly 10% or 20% better chance on receiving loot is not enough. Everyone gets geared up raiding regularly relatively fast, so lootwise I think quality (ilvl??, rare mounts??) matters not quantity.
    Last edited by Marooned; 2013-01-13 at 04:35 PM.
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  3. #783
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    You guys seriously try to bring in the worlds best raiders into your arguments about 10 vs 25. which the OP said to leave out, and focus on 25 only?

    What the Worlds 10 best guilds do has zero value compared to the mainstream of the raiders.
    Those 10 guilds are the ones that make the guides and videos for the masses to re-enact and kill anything too, no matter what raid format.

  4. #784
    I would like to believe they will implement cauldron again for 25s, mass summon, no res timer on mass rez, etc like perks only, instead of ilvl or tittles mounts etc. I believe 25 man players would agree with me that those 3 perks are really necesary for 25 man.

    BTW espe your sig and your posts are retarded period

  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Really? Take a look at Paragon Will heroic world first kill. They lost 2 people and didn't bother to record a kill at first and then the boss just died. Took them total of 18 tries or something. They killed Gara'jal after losing a person as well with 20+ seconds left on enrage. Every single first 25 man kill was at the last possible second.
    To be fair you said in an earlier post and I quote "There's more executional responsibility on any hard 25 man heroic boss. You can't afford a single mistake or death, if you do you're gone just as same as on 10 man.", not a single mistake... well that is not true now is it. ^^ Not to say that you cant afford it in 10man because sometimes you can manage it even tho it becomes alot harder than if a single player would have died in a 25man environment.

  6. #786
    This thread now seems to have been completely hijacked by 10vs25 arguing, despite the moderator warnings. Why can't you folks just let it go ? You've all already made your points multiple times and no one's mind is being changed. Let it go.

  7. #787
    i agree that wow needs to just switch both 10/25 into a 15 man, but keep the 25 bonuses, for heroic modes, imangine that if we take 15 into normal mode we get the standard loot, but the heroic mode could throw us a bone with additional loot or higher ilvl, furthering itself as the "best" raid option. Anymore these days, despite being much harder, the difference between normal and heroic has shrunk, in terms of slightly better gear in heroic, but you either raid 1 or the other, once you raid heroic modes, you simply use normals just for fun or clear them just for the sake of clearing and getting those last minute upgrades.

    I think they need to make the 2 modes more seperated, make 1 clearly stand out as a start for normal, and make heroic better loot, even more difficult, something, once you get the basics down in normal, the only differences in heroic is obviously more health, a few mechanic changes, its been the same format for years, i think heroic mode needs to really stand out, not just the same rehashed and slightly different stuff we get now, but entire new fights, but that goes with my original statement...

    the development time it takes for 10 and 25, could be spent on making a single 15 man (with 3 tiers) and the heroic mode could then be further advanced than it currently is, make heroic mode really spectacular, not just meh with heroic loot, its pretty challenging as is, but they could do so much better

    in bc the raids and the balancing were perfect, it was a uphill battle on every single boss, and it took WEEKS of raiding to kill ONE boss...it was of course way more epic, and defeating said bosses like kalethas, lady vashj, was the best raiding experiences i've ever had. They need to focus on bringing back that epicness, bringing back that feeling of REAL accomplishment, not just throw-away bosses then 1 last boss that is supposed to be uber hard, and gets killed in 3 days...its just pathetic how raiding has become so weak these days.

    hell they could just simply increase health even further, making abilities even more punishing, i think they design these raids and just stop at where they think raiders can kill it, they don't go above and beyond, don't push any further, afraid that no one can ever kill it..they need to have some balls, and make truly insanely hard content again, even if it was just 1 last boss each tier, bring back some pride and real skill again.

    /endrant

  8. #788
    Quote Originally Posted by K0rr3 View Post
    To be fair you said in an earlier post and I quote "There's more executional responsibility on any hard 25 man heroic boss. You can't afford a single mistake or death, if you do you're gone just as same as on 10 man.", not a single mistake... well that is not true now is it. ^^ Not to say that you cant afford it in 10man because sometimes you can manage it even tho it becomes alot harder than if a single player would have died in a 25man environment.
    Wasn't talking about Will heroic in that earlier post though, that is not a hard boss even. Difficulty of it was a disapoitment, especially in 10 man. I was talking about truly challenging bosses like Ragnaros heroic for example. Death in P3 meant you won't have enough dps to push it before 3rd meteor even if you have that person ressed, you already fell behind. And teamwork, positioning, communication in P4 was just unreal compared. One mistake from a single person and you wipe the raid.

  9. #789
    There are charts and charts showing 25m and 10m content has equal difficulty. The overwhelming majority of to guilds are 25 man. 10 man you get 2 loots for 10 people. 25 man gets 6 loots. So that's a bit more loot per person. If they increase the item level of 25m without increasing the difficulty substantially, well, it's a sham. Also, about half of my 10m guild would quit and the others would find a 25m. Nevertheless, 25m content has been proven to be equally difficult with 10 mans, just more loot. I think the system is fine how it is.

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Wasn't talking about Will heroic in that earlier post though, that is not a hard boss even. Difficulty of it was a disapoitment, especially in 10 man. I was talking about truly challenging bosses like Ragnaros heroic for example. Death in P3 meant you won't have enough dps to push it before 3rd meteor even if you have that person ressed, you already fell behind. And teamwork, positioning, communication in P4 was just unreal compared. One mistake from a single person and you wipe the raid.
    And Valiona+ Theralion was close to impossible on 10man when cata was realeased but a joke on 25 man. World first Garalon 25 was killed 30 sec before enrage while the 10 man version was killed 4 sec before enrage, so your talk about the enrage timers always beeing tighter on 25 man is also bullshit.
    The point is that you cant look at specific enounters and say that one raid size is always harder, since it depends mainly on the boss mechanics.

  11. #791
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Wasn't talking about Will heroic in that earlier post though, that is not a hard boss even. Difficulty of it was a disapoitment, especially in 10 man. I was talking about truly challenging bosses like Ragnaros heroic for example. Death in P3 meant you won't have enough dps to push it before 3rd meteor even if you have that person ressed, you already fell behind. And teamwork, positioning, communication in P4 was just unreal compared. One mistake from a single person and you wipe the raid.
    You could manage the timer with a death in p3 sure it made it alot harder but not impossible. p4 positioning was tight but that was organized before so wasent that hard imo and you could have mistakes without a wipe in p4 and yes I progressed/killed him in 25man. You try to talk big with incorrect facts and lies I dont care which is harder in what bracket but saying things that isnt true is nt okay in my book.
    Last edited by -Tuigan; 2013-01-13 at 06:14 PM.

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjok View Post
    Losing one man in 25 man = wipe isn't true now and it wasn't true in cata either. Both Vodka and Method had deaths on their first Gara'jal kills for example and they still managed to kill him. You can check their videos on youtube if you dont belive it.
    It's also funny how the guy in Blood Legions world first Protectors movie was dpsing the wrong target for over a minute, could you get away with such a stupid misstake in 10man? Not a chance.
    Exactly. This is what I have been trying to say all along. Even the devs admit that 10m takes much, much more executional responsibility per person than 25m. Only the die-hard 25m raiders who can't stand to have their egos crushed don't want to hear that they have been coasting to easy epics.

    The truth hurts. Check my sig for more info.

    Infracted
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-01-13 at 07:34 PM.

  13. #793
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Exactly. This is what I have been trying to say all along. Even the devs admit that 10m takes much, much more executional responsibility per person than 25m. Only the die-hard 25m raiders who can't stand to have their egos crushed don't want to hear that they have been coasting to easy epics.

    The truth hurts. Check my sig for more info.
    You are a funny guy. Your posts always make me laugh!

  14. #794
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    If you didn't understand all you had to do was ask
    What I ment by this is that it's easier to get 8 good players out of 10 then lets say 20 out of 25, you understand now?
    Recruiting is hard and therefore 10s players are better? You got me dude, I can't argue with that bulletproof logic.

  15. #795
    Quote Originally Posted by tjok View Post
    And Valiona+ Theralion was close to impossible on 10man when cata was realeased but a joke on 25 man. World first Garalon 25 was killed 30 sec before enrage while the 10 man version was killed 4 sec before enrage, so your talk about the enrage timers always beeing tighter on 25 man is also bullshit.
    The point is that you cant look at specific enounters and say that one raid size is always harder, since it depends mainly on the boss mechanics.
    Valiona, Maloriak and some other bosses were just bugged and later fixed to intended difficulty so they can't be used as an argument.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 07:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Exactly. This is what I have been trying to say all along. Even the devs admit that 10m takes much, much more executional responsibility per person than 25m. Only the die-hard 25m raiders who can't stand to have their egos crushed don't want to hear that they have been coasting to easy epics.

    The truth hurts. Check my sig for more info.
    This comes from a guy boasting out of context sig that was talking about LFR only. I even gave you a link where devs were saying something completely opposite of what you're saying but you chose to ignore it.
    You also said 10 man has tighter enrage timers which is laughable. I gave you numbers and you chose to ignore them.
    Luckily devs stated changes that will help revitalizing 25 mans are incoming so we won't have to put up with this any more.
    Last edited by Radalek; 2013-01-13 at 06:43 PM.

  16. #796
    Luckily devs stated changes that will help revitalizing 25 mans are incoming so we won't have to put up with this any more.
    Ive heard that for a year soon, and it comes back to, "we wanna do something about it but we cant figure out what so will just keep repeating that we wanna fix it".

  17. #797
    Maybe a couple of higher ilvl items per raid. For example 3-4 higher ilvl drops on a tier like t14 size wise or maybe a couple of drops from just the end bosses

    Not sure if that will be enough though 25 mans seem kinda desecrated atm my guild is healthy and going strong but around us it looks like scorched earth.

    I do not consider 10 man raiding btw never have never will. Its nothing more then a weekend activity for alts. 25 man player quality at least on decent guilds is so much higher then their counterparts (rank wise) on 10 mans that its not even remotely comparable. People that do compare them simply lack raiding or guild leading experience.
    Last edited by MarizzaDraenor; 2013-01-13 at 06:48 PM.

  18. #798
    Quote Originally Posted by yazhi View Post
    I would like to believe they will implement cauldron again for 25s, mass summon, no res timer on mass rez, etc like perks only, instead of ilvl or tittles mounts etc. I believe 25 man players would agree with me that those 3 perks are really necesary for 25 man.

    BTW espe your sig and your posts are retarded period
    I don't think that adding any of this stuff is going to make any real difference to Blizzard's intent of keeping 25 man raiding healthy and viable. The cooldown on the Mass Rezz timer is rarely an issue, and run backs are not that bad this tier. Mass summon is convenience only; almost every 25 man raid is going to have warlocks, and all 3 instances are like a 2 minute flight from Shrine. Cauldrons won't make any real difference either. Flasks prices are already extremely low, and raiders can already pretty much provide sustain the mats for all the flasks they could possibly need by just planting Enigma Seeds and trading the Spirits of Harmony they naturally get for Golden Lotus. None of this is going to make any difference whatsoever in how attractive 25 man raiding is vs 10 man raiding.

    Realistically, unless it's a player power increase, and a significant one, they are wasting their time. People have to remember that 25 man raids ALREADY have a loot advantage - they already get a faster gearing path (due to less loot rot) and more loot per person than 10 mans get. 25 man raiders have a 3-5 ilevel advantage and it already isn't close to enough. They probably flat out need to go to having 25 man drop higher ilevel loot, or pre-upgraded loot or something similar for any hope of success.

    On top of that, if they were to make 25 mans drop higher ilevel loot, why does everyone assume it would "put us back in Wrath" and "destroy 10 man guilds". Doing that now would not even be comparable to the shared lockouts/shared loot change at the start of Cata. For one thing, 10 man was never considered a viable progression path until the start of Cata. There was really no such thing as a 10 man guild, because 10 mans were seen as an offnight activity for most raiding guilds.

    If they were to make 25 man higher ilevel now, I would not be so quick as to say that the majority of 10 man guilds would spontaneously combust. People that still preferred the difficulty and preferred playing with their friends would still probably do so, and I think that 50% or more of the 10 man guilds would still survive. On top of that, as long as they keep the shared lockout in place, it would further prevent the level of extreme exodus some of the 10 man apologists are predicting. With the split lockouts, 25 man guilds felt they had to do offnight 10 mans to maximize gear acquisition, and 10 man guilds felt they had to join with other 10 man guilds to do off night 25 mans for the same reason. That gave 25 mans a huge advantage, because it's a lot easier to do 2-3 in guild 10 man groups than it is to do a 25 man with 1-2 other 10 man guilds. I think that factor alone was probably a bigger hurdle to 10 man being a real viable progression path than the gear itself.

    TLDR, I think even if they were to make 25 man a full tier higher in terms of ilevel, you still wouldn't see more than 40-50% of raiders raiding 25 man. Isn't that kind of what you would want to see if the goal is to keep both raid sizes healthy?

  19. #799
    lol do not reply or quote that guy, he is just provoking 10vs25 debate by obvious stupid comments from LFR or something which are not related to topic anyways.

    Anyways since the new announcement, it triggered something on my mind, maybe since the upgrade guy is leaving in 5.2 patch (they could keep him but having 5.2 raid gear drop non-upgradable normal gear and let ppl still upgrade t14 gear) they want to drop already 1/2 upgraded items for 25 man. They will return the guy back in 5.3 so everyone can upgrade their gear. Although my assumption is probably wrong lol. Lets just wait and see what they will do.
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  20. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Exactly. This is what I have been trying to say all along. Even the devs admit that 10m takes much, much more executional responsibility per person than 25m. Only the die-hard 25m raiders who can't stand to have their egos crushed don't want to hear that they have been coasting to easy epics.

    The truth hurts. Check my sig for more info.
    The baiting needs to stop. Not only have you provided no evidence of your claims, but you ignore points by the devs counter to your claims. Also, when somebody has explained to you that your sig was taken out of context and links you the actual statement along with the proper context you ignore it. Please, just act like an adult and come up with a valid point.
    Don't blame the casuals for making Warcraft worse. It's the unskilled masses who refuse to improve themselves and Blizzard who has decided to bribe these folks with an endless shower of purples that should draw the ire of both casual and hardcore alike. It was never about "seeing the content" for these people it's always been about the gear and their sense of entitlement.

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