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  1. #21
    Jaina was not killing every blood elf she met. She was teleporting them to prison. In fact all dirty work in that quest line was initiated by Rhonins wife Veressa who has been itching for a chance to murder as many blood elves as possible since her husband died.

    I think people are confusing what happened in that quest line and placing all the bad things that Varessa has us do upon Jaina's shoulders.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    The problem with the Culling of Stratholme was that Arthas called for the death of every person in the city because they MIGHT be infected. This wasn't shown very well in the CoT instance. Actually it wasn't shown at all. But he killed every man, woman, and child in the city, for no reason other than there was a chance that they might come back as undead. On top of that, they were civilians with no chance of defending themselves getting cut down by trained soldiers of their own government. THAT was the part that Uther and Jaina objected to, and what made his decision so terrible. There were better ways to accomplish the same goal.

    In the Purge of Dalaran, at least Jaina only had us attack those who were actively resisting. Everyone else was imprisoned but not harmed. Still not morally perfect, but not comparable in any way to the Culling of Stratholme.
    I think this is a good pov. I think a lot of people weren't infected YET at all. But what would have happend if Uther Jaina and Arthas took their time to have all the people contained and would destroy any awakened undead from those people contained? You think that could have been in time? Containing an entire city like Stratholm could take ages.

    So instead he did "what had to be done". Now sure I also would have preferred the containment. But the result of that could very wel have been that they were trying to contain...and then all hell broke lose as they would have been too late before the transformation would be complete. People would see their loved ones turn into the undead. Chaos would ensue. They would be eaten or infected themselves aswell.

    Perhaps - just perhaps they would have saved a few but at enormous risk to the security of neighbouring lands. So still the best decision was made, be it a horrible decision. And Jaina and Uther letting this "boy" do it alone, made me cringe. I liked Uther a lot until that time.

    The purge of Dalaran was a "culling" just like with Arthas. Don't be fooled by "Jaina teleporting the sunreavers to the violet hold". She killed a lot of Sunreavers while I was there doing "her quests". I avoided killing any non-quest sunreaver (eg people running in panic on the street out of fear). But Jaina just killed them on sight.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 04:37 PM ----------

    What Arthas did do wrong was killing the mercenaries who fought for him. And then later on burning the boats. But the burning of the boats itself wasn't an evil act perse. You can debate that was it needed (the morale would have been higher of the men). In the end he also needed frostmourne. And as someone stated in another thread, no Arthas did not struck Muradin. He was just hit accidently by a shard of Ice. Initially we were told that Frostmourne took his life (in WCIII). Later on we learned that the first soul Frostmourne took was actually Arthas's as Muradin didn't die at all.

    So what do we have - the only evil (and actually also only way to keep morale high for his men) thing he did was killing the mercenaries. After that everything can be blamed on Frostmourne.

    What excuses does Jaina have?

  3. #23
    The purge of Dalaran was a "culling" just like with Arthas. Don't be fooled by "Jaina teleporting the sunreavers to the violet hold". She killed a lot of Sunreavers while I was there doing "her quests". I avoided killing any non-quest sunreaver (eg people running in panic on the street out of fear). But Jaina just killed them on sight.
    Really? I must have missed all the killing. I mean I followed her around once I got the quests to see what she was saying. I made a full 2 laps around the city. She NEVER killed a single one. She fought some, weakened them and then teleported them out. The only ones she killed where the soldiers caught red handed guarding the portal when she first stepped through.

    As to what excuse she had. She had a proven militant group using the city as a staging ground in war. She offered them a chance to leave peacefully. They refused. They had to be removed before they had a chance to fortify and turn Dalaran into a war zone.

    killing every man, women and child, or putting some sunreavers to prision?...hmmm hard choice , really.
    Both cases you can argue to be morally grey. So, yes one can argue somesimilarity. However, imprisoning those guilty only by association is nowhere on the level of mass slaughter of infected and uninfected alike.

  4. #24
    OP you are thinking of the purge as it appeared in the video game. Uther was thinking of the purge, as the man who was supposed to kill hundreds of his own people.
    Statistically Arthas probably did something good, but it was his inhumanity that turned Uther away.

  5. #25
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Vereesa is the most honorable elf that ever existed, one can't say the same about Aethas or any Blood Elf.

  6. #26
    The Culling of Stratholme was needed and unavoideble. Arthas wanted to safe his people and take revenge on Malganis for spreading the Plague in the first place. Jaina in the Purge of Dalaran, on the other hand, had the CHOICE to not KILL every Sunreaver in the city... yet she did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Vereesa is the most honorable elf that ever existed, one can't say the same about Aethas or any Blood Elf.
    Yeah, her hatred towards the Blood Elves and the Horde is wise and noble... not.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  7. #27
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Jaina in the Purge of Dalaran, on the other hand, had the CHOICE to not KILL every Sunreaver in the city... yet she did.
    That's what you get for abusing her city to transfer military equipment.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Vereesa is the most honorable elf that ever existed, one can't say the same about Aethas or any Blood Elf.
    Honestly, I don't think they get much lower than Vereesa in terms of Thalassian history of violence and injustice against the Thalassian nation. Dar'khan Drathir has her beat, I guess, but after that, it's pretty much hers at this point. As a dilettante expatriate who lectures about stuff she doesn't understand, she's tolerable; as a militant fanatic exhorting summary execution of Thalassians without any proof of wrongdoing whatsoever, she's scum. I would hope that Lor'themar has a KOS order on her, at least if she ever sets foot in Quel'thalas or on Quel'danas again, and I sincerely doubt any future meeting with Halduron would be as collegial as the one in 4.1.

    Oh, right, the thread. Well, which is worst depends on where you rank the two considerations, namely a) the morality of the conduct, and b) the necessity/certainty of success.

    Arthas was killing any and all, but on its face, he could reasonably assume killing all those people would prevent the plague from turning them (in practice, of course, it was moot because there are other ways to skin that cat). Jaina and Vereesa were only killing discretionarily as they saw fit, but the purge was also much less likely to achieve the desired result, too.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    That's what you get for abusing her city to transfer military equipment.
    It could justify her actions against the Sunreaver magi, since I'm one willing to accept that WoW war shouldnt be about real life opinions of morals. But killing traders, disabling their dragonhawks and especially killing other innocents is on the same level as Garrosh bombing Theramore.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  10. #30
    I think the culling of Strathlome was unavoidable. The loss of life was tragic, but it was better than letting the city be overrun anyway.

    Dalaran, however...

    Jaina was angry. She felt betrayed from Theramore already. Even finding a hint of conspiracy amongst the Sunreaver's would have made her flip. Her fury was completely understandable, but I don't believe the imprisonment of countless blood elves was just. If she wasn't still suffering from Theramore's emotional effect, her usual cool-tempered self would have probably discreetly investigated the sunreaver incident and cleanly punished those involved. As a Hordie, I respect Jaina, but this made me disappointed in her character.


    Currently playing World of Warcraft, the Dragon Age duo, and TES: Skyrim. Not at the same time, of course. I'm not an octopus.

  11. #31
    Let me fix that for you:
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    The Culling of Stratholme was needed and unavoideble. Arthas wanted to safe his people and take revenge on Malganis for spreading the Plague in the first place. Jaina in the Purge of Dalaran, on the other hand, had the CHOICE to not KILL every Sunreaver in the city... and she didn't.
    Jaina imprisoned most of the Sunreavers. Only a few were actually killed, those that resisted and tried to fortify inside Dalaran.

    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    It could justify her actions against the Sunreaver magi, since I'm one willing to accept that WoW war shouldnt be about real life opinions of morals. But killing traders, disabling their dragonhawks and especially killing other innocents is on the same level as Garrosh bombing Theramore.
    Again, only those that resisted were killed. Think of it like police trying to arrest someone and them shooting at the police. I would not call the police shooting back 'killing innocents'.

    And how is a mass arrest even remotely comparable to dropping a WMD on a town?

    Imagine a club with known mafia ties. A crime is committed involving the club resources, club leadership and an unknown number of members. The police bring in every member and detain them for questioning. That is basically what happened. Only some of the members resisted arrest, shooting at the police, and the police shot back and killed them. Now you are saying that is the same as if dropping a Nuke on a city.....

    Quote Originally Posted by NatureDrake View Post
    Jaina was angry. She felt betrayed from Theramore already. Even finding a hint of conspiracy amongst the Sunreaver's would have made her flip. Her fury was completely understandable, but I don't believe the imprisonment of countless blood elves was just. If she wasn't still suffering from Theramore's emotional effect, her usual cool-tempered self would have probably discreetly investigated the sunreaver incident and cleanly punished those involved. As a Hordie, I respect Jaina, but this made me disappointed in her character.
    And while she was investigating the Sunreavers use Dalaran to put a mana bomb in Stormwind? This was the second incident. She had EVERY reason to believe another could and very likely would happen.

    The Sunreaver spy in Theramore had to have had help to get into that position. Garrosh had to be able to count on his presence. This means high ranking Sunreaver involvement. Jaina trusted Aethas to uncover it and deal with it. The stealing of the bell she caught Sunreavers in the act. Aethas foreknowledge and involvement was certain. This was obviously not a 'couple' Sunreavers. Her emotional response (which I think makes the character more real) allowed some abuses to happen. If she had been calmer, carried out or at least supervised the action more, it would have been more peaceful. More peaceful, not completely peaceful, I don't see the guilty Sunreavers stepping down. But removing the organization before another major breach was logical. Emotionally carried out, but still a logical choice.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert the fish View Post
    And coldhearted, let's be fair.
    It was necessary, but it was also butchery. They couldn't fight back in any way, at least the sunreavers were capable of fighting.
    I'm not sure that it makes what Arthas did was more or less evil, but let's count all the chips.
    Perhaps, but he did spare them the curse of Undeath. I don't think Arthas took great pride in what he did.
    It's a hard question, but I would do the same, killing a few to save the rest. That dos not make it a cold-hearted murder.

  13. #33
    Arthas "assumed" that all people in Stratholme were infected and slaughtered everyone there. It was his cold-hearted attitude that turned Uther away. Uther himself was shocked by his noble disciple's attitude. If you played WC3, you will know that Arthas seemed like he was trying to win the game agianst Mal'ganis out of his pride than trying his best to save his people. There's the letter wrote by Uther about young Arthas to his friend in rpg warcraft that describe what Arthas is really well.

    "The only thing that bothers me about Arthas is that he has a disturbing quality in him. Sometimes, in training, I have seen him go a little far while sparring. He is so dedicating to winning the match that he forgets that it is only for training. He lacks control; I suppose it's a sense of ruthlessness that lies under his honorable exterior. I have full confidence that he will use this dedication to battle for his people, and I look forward to testing him. Once he really wets his sword, I can begin to teach him control. I don't want to rein his power just yet, until I can see what he's capable of." Uther Lightbringer

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilananazz View Post
    Perhaps, but he did spare them the curse of Undeath. I don't think Arthas took great pride in what he did.
    It's a hard question, but I would do the same, killing a few to save the rest. That dos not make it a cold-hearted murder.
    I think the problem with Arthas was pride. He knew what had to be done and he was not going to listen to anyone else. He refused to even consider any other options. Maybe he was making the right choice, but then again, maybe there was another option. He just refused to listen.

    In the end, I think the culling was the tipping point. Once he went that far he could never quit. He couldn't let it all be for nothing. He had to destroy Mal'Ganis.

  15. #35
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Stratholme had to be done, but not like the way it went by... People could have been contained and saved.
    I think the Briedenbrad quests made it pretty clear, that there was no chance in hell that they would have found a cure on the fly.
    Considering that they barely had any knowledge of the plagues design.

    As far as Jainas action went: She gave people a choice. They chose to resort to deadly means, so I responded in kind. She should have checked it with Varian though.

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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Jaina was not killing every blood elf she met. She was teleporting them to prison. In fact all dirty work in that quest line was initiated by Rhonins wife Veressa who has been itching for a chance to murder as many blood elves as possible since her husband died.

    I think people are confusing what happened in that quest line and placing all the bad things that Varessa has us do upon Jaina's shoulders.
    Jaina is 100% responsible for everything Vareesa did during the purge. Jaina put Vareesa in charge and was present to supervise Vereesa's actions.
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  17. #37
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    But killing traders, disabling their dragonhawks and especially killing other innocents is on the same level as Garrosh bombing Theramore.
    So Jaina just returned the favor of Garrosh, where's the problem with that? Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Yeah, her hatred towards the Blood Elves and the Horde is wise and noble... not.
    Vareesa sees her once proud and noble people reduced to using fel magic before being 'cleansed', and being slaves of the orcs instead of allies with the humans.

  19. #39
    Reasons why the Violet Hold getting stuffed full of Sunreaver prisoners is not acceptable.

    1) It's not very big. There are not very many cells and the ones there are are not deep. A lot of elves were packed in there. It's not difficult to imagine that it's standing room only in some of those cells, with all the sanitation and health issues that go with it.

    2) Blood elves are not the only things that prison contains. As should be well-known at this point, the cells usually restrain great big monsters. This would reduce the number of available cells even further, but it's worse than that. One high-profile former occupant of the Hold was Alizabal, who was sent to Baradin Hold because her corruptive influence was causing the guards to murder each other. There's no telling what's in there now with the blood elves.

    3) Most of the blood elves in there didn't do anything wrong. They didn't assist in the capture of the bell and they didn't even know about the operation. For them, the first word they got of it was the chaos of the purge. They got everything they had taken from them and slammed into one of the most notorious prisons in-universe because they happened to share a race with the perpetrators.

    4) As a corollary to number three, many of those outright killed in the purge were also innocent. "Resisting arrest" is little more than a fancy way of saying "fighting back when your door gets busted down and everyone you know is getting dragged out into the streets for no reason that you can even fathom."

    Many of the actual guilty were cut down or got away with Rommath because they were on alert to repercussions. The rest are simply guilty of being blood elves. And they're rotting in prison. They have no hope of a trial, and even if they got one it would probably be a kangaroo court. This isn't justice.

    It should also be noted that this exact same thing happened in WC3, with Kael'thas and all the blood elves under him getting tossed in the Hold by Garithos, again for little more reason than simply being blood elves. Given that WC3 treated Kael's situation as an atrocity that first pushed him down the dark path he wound up on, it beggars belief that this time it's totally different and right.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    As to what excuse she had. She had a proven militant group using the city as a staging ground in war. She offered them a chance to leave peacefully. They refused. They had to be removed before they had a chance to fortify and turn Dalaran into a war zone.
    This right here? It's a load of crap. As a Horde I had to go to Krasus' Landing to stop the Silver Covenant from killing all the dragonhawks specifically because they didn't want any Sunreavers escaping. The choice they were given was between prison or death. Those that got a choice, anyway. The ones that got away did so because Rommath showed up to usher them out through the least guarded point.
    Last edited by Drilnos; 2013-01-09 at 09:58 PM.

  20. #40
    I like to think that in a situation like Stratholme I would try and do everything in my power to cure them rather than just killing everyone after about six seconds consideration. But then again i'm not mentally unbalanced like Arthas so.. Woop.

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