Why NOT give 25 Man Raiding Higher ilvl Loot?

[Radalek]

What rubbish. I had the opposite experience in all 25 guilds; people have their little "cliques" of 5/6 friends that they bitch to in whisper constantly and generate drama, they start groups for things and don't invite certain members because they think they're above those select players. There is no gchat in 25s because everyone's talking in their secret created channels.

That's a bad community then but is still a community and it's rarely happens that gchat is dead with so many people around. In 10 man guilds it's almost a rule. There's exceptions on both sizes ofc, some 10 man guilds are big and have multiple raid groups and are nice community. But like I said it's an exception to the rule. In the end extinction of big 25 man guilds is hurting this game on so many levels and Blizzard realized that. So once changes come don't bitch about them and look at the bigger picture of making this game better with big guilds being revitalized.

[Rickarus]

Respectfully, how would it "kill" 10 man guilds? People who like 10 man style of raiding would continue to do so. It would also be enough incentive to give those teetering on going to 25 man to do so, and do the extra work to organize that type of raid environment.

Its not a matter of people enjoying playing one way or another. Currently, a 10man guild downing everything on Heroic is nearly as big a feat as a 25man doing the same. The difficulty of both is similar, with some bosses being harder on 10man (elegon for example) and others being harder on 25man (stone puppies are a good example) but with both being fairly close overall. So top tier guilds are not EXCLUSIVELY 25man guilds, like it was pre-Cata. If difficulty and gear reward is higher in 25man, then 10man effectively becomes the "B" class of raiding. This would kill 10man top tier guilds, as they would feel pressured to switch to 25man to be competing at the highest echelon of raiders.

[masteryuri]

Because 10m is a lot easier...I have more bosses down on 10 with some heroic while 25 we struggle (same people). People don't bother going for 25 if you can just pug your way through 10m.

If you struggle it may be that the other 15 are bad. Just sayin'.

[gnorrior]

If you struggle it may be that the other 15 are bad. Just sayin'.

Hence the problem.
It's much easier to find 10 good players and raid same-difficulty + same gear, and thus gear yourself easier.

The pandoras box is if the best loot is in 25s then everyone will run that for gear.
If the best loot isnt in 25s, then the majority of guilds will do 10s because it's easier to organize, which literally makes it significantly easier content to run, as a group effort. Period. You can say "that's just logistics", but logistics is a large part of what a guild and group effort is. All else equal, 25s are harder because of logistics, but have no reward.

I'm not going to get into the 10vs25 debate, because it's mostly from people who don't see logic or reason and always think they are right. I think they are two completely different environments because of the logistics and the way gear is awarded (25s will, on average, shard less gear [unless class stacking] and 10s will shard more gear, but 10s are much easier to organize, 25s will have much more drama etc. These factors do NOT cancel or compare in my opinion.) There is no more room for error in either 10s or 25s, and based on probability 25s (even with 3 brez's) really have more of a chance to make stupid mistakes past what they're allowed (3 rez's).

I'm not sure what the solution is, except perhaps to change it to 15m raids in the next expo, where its easy for 10m to find a few more, and 25s can split into 2 or something of that nature. But 25s are alive because the "best" can go to 25m guilds and gear easier (less sharding because of more people. Yes multiple gear can still drop, but again probability of bad loot in 25s is lower since you'll likely have a broader roster.), but other than those large server first-type guilds, most guilds will go to 10m because its easier to find 10 players of similar skill than 25.

[Ethes]

Hence the problem.
It's much easier to find 10 good players and raid same-difficulty + same gear, and thus gear yourself easier.

The pandoras box is if the best loot is in 25s then everyone will run that for gear.
If the best loot isnt in 25s, then the majority of guilds will do 10s because it's easier to organize, which literally makes it significantly easier content to run, as a group effort. Period. You can say "that's just logistics", but logistics is a large part of what a guild and group effort is. All else equal, 25s are harder because of logistics, but have no reward.

Since 25m already gives more loot per person than 10m your reward is already there. As for handing out higher item level gear to 25m, that is bullocks. It is rewarding the wrong people. As you've stated, it is logistics, recruiting and managing a 25m guild that is harder. The people pressing the buttons in the raid, to pretty much the same thing in both 10m and 25m. So higher item level gear goes to the wrong people.

Now, if there would be an incentive to give 25m guild leaders, raid leaders and officers something back for the additional time investment, that I would approve off!

[naturestorm]

Now, if there would be an incentive to give 25m guild leaders, raid leaders and officers something back for the additional time investment, that I would approve off!

It should be logistic something to help the raid out. Like X scaled extra time on your flasks/food depending on players in raid so 25m raids will get it maxed. More gold for gbank and/or more VP per boss so it would be easyer to cap VP in a 25m raid. Things like that, things that only affect the players a bit but it still helps out the general raid so you don't have to work that much (logistical) for the raid.

Or thinking a bit more, maybe in next patch to have differnt BoE drop from trash, like higher ilevel on 25m raid just to boost the economy a bit and justify 25m raider to do trash and not afk. Overall it makes not that of a big difference for a good 10m or 25m raider as he will replace that BoE with higher ilevel item from boss drop, but still untill then it's a good upgrade.

[Toua]

5 weeks of raiding in 25: ~ 30 people worth of gearing (moderate amount of luck involved)
5 weeks of raiding in 10: ~ 10 people worth of gearing (no dez, insane luck...)

I'm curious about the maths for an average 10m starting in normal and ending cleaning heroic and an average 25m starting in normal and ending heroic.
With set average ilvls needed for each boss, finding the probability(time) needed to clear heroic mode for this tier and the time needed for fully gearing each raid. That would be most interesting.

[Talen]

Because Blizzard wants 10s to be a viable option and because it wants players to select a format without paying attention to end game rewards.

Game history and experience shows giving 25s better loot destroys those goals.

EJL

[Zoomin]

Respectfully, how would it "kill" 10 man guilds? People who like 10 man style of raiding would continue to do so. It would also be enough incentive to give those teetering on going to 25 man to do so, and do the extra work to organize that type of raid environment.

Because there are lots of 10 man raiders (myself including) who love to raid and do heroic content, in a 10 man setting. But if 25 man raids gave better loot, and more importantly where actually harder then i would have to do 25 mans. Otherwise I would have only done the 10 man version of this raid, I wouldn't have seen the most difficult version of it.

[Primaliron]

Something among these lines seems a much better idea. Less of a pain in the ass for the RL/GL/Officers!

Yeah I was trying to be a bit silly and make a point at the same time. The problem is and will always be a matter of organization. Loot changes will do nothing but shift the problem elsewhere. This problem isn't specific to wow, it has to do with ANY group activity. Everyone wants punch and pie, but nobody wants to go to the store or bake, or even set up, and nobody ever wants to clean up. It's really not that hard to start a forum thread for your realm about running 25s to gauge interest. Learn to organize people! There's more than 25 of you out there wanting to run 25s if threads like this are any indication, get together and get it done. With all the collective griping on various forums there is enough effort being wasted to run plenty of 25s. Blizz could make it a little easier by giving raid leads insane abilities to compensate for player stupidity (and the occasional actual emergency) but raidinfg will always feel like a chore unless every raider involved takes some responsibility for understanding everything they need to do.

Despite how much this makes it sound like a chore, once you get a good raid group rolling it is a cakewalk. Every person in your raid should be able to assist and should have the attitude of trying to assist (without filling up raid chat). You just have to put the effort into getting it rolling.