Still, it's a steady decline. We have had some time in which the population was stable, but never raised apart for the DS bump. Looking at the complete trend, we're just going down.
I will be completey honest though I know this puts me in a bad light. I liked playing rogue when I could just go up behind, stun, bam,bam,bam, bam stun, bam, bam bam dead.
Now it's too much utilities that demand timing and prediction to succeed in pvp and I'm simply - too slow and/or dumb - to enjoy it.
..:: Lvl 90's: 56 ::..
Been playing my Rogue since Wrath.
Always has and always will be my main. First class i ever chose and never regretted it.
Still enjoy playing it
Even leveling a rogue back then was 1 of the most annoying classes to level.
Food and Bandages WAS Required.
As far as i see it.
Rogue is still good. Basically the only class that has not had a full revamp.
We will always be softies wearing Leather and extremely vulnerable out of stealth.
Nothing has changed now.
It is true that a lot of our abilities have been improved and given to other classes.
I have noticed that a lot of people that main'd rogue in Cata for legendaries are the biggest voices shouting about how bad they are while the people that have been class loyal through the good and the bad times haven't really said anything bad about them.
I will agreed that.
We have always been a undesired class in Wrath and Cata up until 4-set Firelands where we brought Tricks - Glyphed (Or non-Glyphed depending on fight). Which was a raid dps gain and self buff.
Then came DS 2-set. Dps gain + Reduced ability cost with a legendary + the multiple specs of a rogue could excel on every single fight while all dps specs were doing about the same amount of damage.
We got 2 extra abilities and 1 is on a 3 min cd and a few spec changes (Where alot of other classes got full redesigns becoz they did not 'Feel' right)
Choosing between Prep and Shadowstep was just the most anti-climatic change.
I remember seeing the minute rogue community complain about that change on Beta but you cant blame them for adding that change.
In theory.. Having those 2 together is a little too strong but in practice.. It is required to survive.
Rogue will always be rogue.
We still have the Yellow class color and we wnt give that up so easily!
If rogues are "the weakest any class has ever been in pvp" than what the hell are Ret paladins?
Last edited by nyc81991; 2013-01-04 at 09:38 AM.
pvp wise rogues have always been questionable bad at the start of an expansion. they rely heavily on good weapons and a healthy amount of resilience.
also perception of balanced is skewed because with the introduction of new talents and abilities, balance is simply off and stabilizes slowly.
the comps that get ran and are popular also has to do with how the idea of balance "feels".
then there are the classes that are great against rogues. naturally the better those classes are the more they get played and the more rogues get owned and seem like rogues suck.
basically plate classes are hard for rogue, warrior, dk, ret paladin. warrior seems in a very powerful state atm, and they have always been able to demolish rogues so that shouldnt be surprising matchup. dks with their selfheals and diseases work very well against rogues since rogue has a harder time resetting/stealthing basically making it a fight with a deadline, the dk is not easy to blow up. before dks, ret paladins were the anti rogue, i believe this is because they also have a combination of plate, healing and debuffs rendering the rogues greatest ally, its ability to stealth, much less useful. for a long time ret paladins have been worked on because they used to be an overlooked spec and they are alright.
Well, I can understand why people think rogues are underpowered these days, at least those who remember how OP they were in vanilla. :P
Or to put it another way, everything is relative. Traditionally rogues have, IMO, been either perfectly fine or OP most of the time.
So, for anyone used to being able to lolstomp a bunch of classes and being far from useless against others it might seem like rogues are weak now. But yeah, all classes always need a little tweaking.
I am the Kwisatz Haderach
Rogues aren't bad atm, just people don't play rogues because they find them boring, and i agree with that even if i stick with my rogue cause it has been my main from the very start.
We don't want more damage or control, we want better/funnier rotation and abilities. Hell, even minor glyphs are boring as hell, the only one that you see around is the vanish clone.
EDIT: 5.2 patch brings changes, but most of them are about balancing PvE/PvP damage which is something we don't need atm.
I still enjoying playing mage/rogue in 2's the most, rogue still by far my best 2's arena partner
Also consider how a clever rogue in some bgs is of vital importance. Ninjacapping for example saved us quite a few times.
And again preventing some members of the opposite team to reach their destination. Smokebomb when nuking flag carriers.
The only bg I find myself in serious trouble is the new one, temple of I can't remember. I'm insta nuked as I pop out every single time.
There is still plenty we can do. To be honest I'm quite enjoying rogues in this state. I'd take control over damage and play a support class any day of the year but I know no class can have too much control anymore due to qq.
---------- Post added 2013-01-04 at 10:22 AM ----------
Look at "shadow walk" (or is it? Not sure I remember the name).
It has NO visual effect whatsoever and it uses the sound from stealth
We have boring mechanics and that's true. Finishers need a revamp methinks.
But still, a rogue's a rogue, and nothing ingame beats stealthing around
Just in a short term ghost my m8 give us our iron balls back so we can cavity search allll great classes once more, and put some good dps in pve aswel in every spec this time.
Rogues aren't bad, they're just not as fun as they used to be. To me rogues feel like a class from the 2004 era trying to compete against classes in 2013. It's so antiquated and boring now, finding the urge to actually play mine is tough. The 5.2 changes won't up that fun factor. Best chances for major changes to the rogue class will be in the next expansion. That's probably when I'll play my rogue again, if they decide to upgrade the fun factor that is.
I think the main reason why rogues have become this boring is a simple one; We got balanced.
The "fun" play style we had back in the day (I.e. stalking our prey from stealth, jumping into the fray, killing him almost instantly, then either dying or redoing it) was shafted due to it simply not being fun or fair for the receivers. The result being our openers nerfed to the ground, our active attacks hardly dealing any damage, and auto attacks being our main source of dps. All in the name of balance...
Granted, I see why that type of gameplay couldn't be allowed to be in the game, but what they've done to the class in order to fix the problem isn't exactly desirable either. The most fun I've had for a while with my rogue, was playing Sub at the end of Cataclysm. Decent amount of burst, almost enough to instantly kill an unaware enemy, just the way I like it!
I've said it before, and I don't think there any arguement around this:
Other classes can do what we do better. Better meaning their skills compared to ours have many or all of:
No resource cost (Often times we have TWO costs, combo points and energy...)
Base ability (as in, not a talent, such as hunter rediness)
NO positional or stance requirement
Kidney shot VS Shockwave: Does damage, AOE stuns, no resource cost, cannot be parried or dodged.
Dismantle VS Disarm: Disarm has no cost.
Dismantle VS Grapple Weapon: No cost, buffs damage / defense.
Also while filling multiple roles, being more mobile, dealing more damage, taking less damage, or being effective from range.
...Except for smokebomb and Shroud of Concealment!
One of the biggest problems with Rogues in PVP is their survivability. The few skills they have to help mitigate damage can't be used during stuns (feint / elusiveness, and leaching poison). Right now Rogue damage is okay, and will be better after 5.2; however, Rogues will still get tore up inside of stuns.
In PVE, Rogues lack any serious utility, and this was something Ghostcrawler said they were going to fix in MoP back in 4.2. For some reason it wasn't fixed at all.
I'm sure someone will come in here and say Cloak of Shadows, Feint etc. is raid utility when in reality it's no more "raid utility" than a Death Knight's anti-magic zone, or a Mage's ice block.
Actual reasons why I have turned down Rogues from my raids:
-We only have one slot for a melee DPS, and we will need him to off-tank on certain fights. Rogues can't off tank.
-I would rather have a class that has Time Warp, Blood Lust, Ancient Hysteria etc.
-I would rather have a ranged DPS because they can handle adds.
-I would rather have a Feral Druid or Death Knight because both of them have battle resurrection.
The list could go on, but these are the more frequent reasons I avoid inviting Rogues (and yes, I have a level 90 Rogue, but see no reason to bring one to my raids).
I don't care if a Rogue deals 10% more DPS than a Mage (Rogues don't, this is just an example), if I need any of the aforementioned utilities there is no incentive to bringing a Rogue to my raid and the slot feels wasted. Right now Rogues bring the least to any PVE encounter, and they are middle-of-the-pack DPS-wise, and about to take a huge drop off in 5.2. I would rather see the class removed from the game and re-introduced as a hero class next expansion, because after two expansions of acknowledging the problem but refusing to fix it, I don't see any hope for the class.
Personally I find Rogues to be both fun and strong at the moment. If people want 'flashier' spells then i'm afraid they made a terrible mistake when picking Rogue, the class of stealth, subtlety, reconnaissance and disguise, over Paladin; the class of unmissable, bright lights, blindingly luminous armour and holy crusaders of how-can-you-guys-miss-me-with-all-my-shiny-spells?
As to the rotations, they aren't particularly changed and have been simplified and thus more fun in my opinion. Assassination is in essence the new Arcane spec, from a PvE perspective; easy, strong and satisfying. Truth be told, beyond the 5.2 changes which improve quality of life, i'm fine where Rogue is at the moment, although from a PvP perspective they could certainly use a bit of buffing (or other classes such as Warriors/Healers could use some nerfing, one of the two)
"It hath been found by experience that no matter how decent, intelligent or thoughtful the reasoning of a conservative may be, as an argument with a liberal is advanced, the probability of being accused of ‘bigotry’, ‘hatred’ or ‘intolerance’ approaches 1." - Cranmer's Law