Why do people think rogues are so bad?

[Ghul]

rogues are not bad, they are just boring :/

even smoke bomb and groupstealth is totally boring in itself.. yeah it has some uses, but those are very limited and in most cases you need a group for it to work very well, i'm not even going to start with how badly situational they are~~

cools skills that we have (imo): -shadowstep, liked it since its been first implemented. sadly its still not baseline, but at least every spec can now get it if they so choose.
-cloak of shadows - just because its so extremely versatile and it can even get more versatile when glyphed/specced into
-vanish : also loved this spell since i first got it, most ninjalike-feel you'll ever get

thats about it, our damagedealing-skills are across the board totally boring and the whole cp-> finisher system has gotten more uninteresting throughout the years.
i remember in vanilla when there were some different opening-rotations with energy available taken into consideration - today its just a huge clusterfuck of rng energyproccs, cp-proccs and haste-reliant energyregen... wheres the consistency of the good old days? i really liked that you could memorize a certain "death"-combo and roll with it. today its just... blergh spam spam spam spam - with very low damage numbers too.. (i know we were a bit op with the stunlockopening, but it got nerfed very reasonably through vanilla and it still remained fun overall)

its just sad how things have developed

[Incineration]

Yea that would make sense if it wasn't for them giving every single melee some one shot macro skill for mop lol.

The only melee classes (that I know off...) capable of stacking several cooldowns into a "one-shot macro" are Pallies and Warriors. Not sure why that's relevant though. Getting killed by a carefully setup assassination isn't exactly comparable to getting instant killed by an invisible enemy you can't do much against.

[Rizo211]

Long time lurker, first time poster. My rogues been my main since '04 and despite leveling pretty much every class to cap since then I always come back to my rogue. I didn't get the daggers last expansion and to be honest I was starting to get bored with the class even when it was apparently FoTm. During MoP's beta I was really hoping to see some real play style changes but aside from making Sub a little more forgiving nothing really did. I stuck with my rogue though, he was the first to hit 90 and the only toon I considered raiding with. But aside from getting ShS across all three specs my over all impression of the changes was "Thats it?". Shadow Blades, while a nice dps boost, is yet another fire and forget ability. Shroud of Concealment? Like Ghul said so limited and situational I don't even have it hotkeyed. Shadow Walk? I don't PvP at all and I've yet to hear a good use for it in PvE.

This is really the first time since I first created my rogue (yeah it 8 years old in Nov) that I've seriously considered shelving him. Mostly because it just feels like most of my abilities have been improved and given to other classes leaving my rogue feeling old and out dated. Why am I still building combo points on the target while my Pally(HP), Monk(Chi) and Warlock(Shards, Embers) build them more efficiently on themselves? Why am I still locked into positional abilities when other classes don't suffer the same restrictions? I wouldn't suggest removing Backstab or Ambush but why not change Backstabs name to Shank and give it a chance to proc Find Weakness when attacking from behind? Why do all my specs feel the same? I can go from ordering a pet around as my main source of damage or firing off exploding arrows on my hunter. Or go from raining down fire and brimstone to becoming a freakin demon on my lock. They're both Pure DPS specs like my rogue but their specs feel different. Even my warrior and DK's dps specs play differently, why don't mine? Kinda ironic that they scrapped Versatility because thats one of the big things I feel is missing for the class.

The more I play the other classes available or look at other games featuring rogues/thieves the more I find myself asking "Why can't I do this on my rogue!?". I'm not asking for more "Flash", I don't want to light up like a christmas tree every time I pop a CD. But when I pop Shadow Blades why can't I see my rogue drawing shadows to him instead of my hands turning purple. I'd just like to have some abilities that I can look forward to clicking. Be awesome to have an in combat ability for Combat that Mug's your opponent stealing his weapon and using it against him. Envenom having a chance to proc Explosive Poisons that has a chance to spread your deadly stacks the guy or two beside your main target. How about Poison/Dirty fighting/Bleed damage themes for the three specs? There's so much they can do to introduce some much needed flavour to the class and all they seem to be focused on is improving our PvE damage (which is arguably fine/good outside of Combat, which is being nerfed) and balancing out our PvP short comings.

[Alfirin]

Since the conception of the Rogue, Blizzard has holed them on being a cooldown-based class. Unfortunately that playstyle is out-dated and not very relevant to most other class / specs these days.

I still love my Rogue for the feel of the class, but it's mechanics are uninspired compared to most others.

To answer the topic question though; most people think Rogues are bad because... they're bad (currently). A pure melee dps class that doesn't top the charts, and a pure damage dealer that only annoys in PvP instead of wrecking havoc. A nimble-footed leather wearer that has the least amount of mobility compared to just about any class in the game, and whose survival relies on 2 minute cools being ready.

The list goes on, but besides reliable cc, anything a Rogue can do (in this current state of the game) someone else can and will do better.

[Incineration]

Since the conception of the Rogue, Blizzard has holed them on being a cooldown-based class. Unfortunately that playstyle is out-dated and not very relevant to most other class / specs these days.

I still love my Rogue for the feel of the class, but it's mechanics are uninspired compared to most others.

To answer the topic question though; most people think Rogues are bad because... they're bad (currently). A pure melee dps class that doesn't top the charts, and a pure damage dealer that only annoys in PvP instead of wrecking havoc. A nimble-footed leather wearer that has the least amount of mobility compared to just about any class in the game, and whose survival relies on 2 minute cools being ready.

The list goes on, but besides reliable cc, anything a Rogue can do (in this current state of the game) someone else can and will do better.

Don't forget; While we've got an extensive kit of ccs/stuns/immobilizes, our cc's are (to my knowledge) the only ones that come at a direct cost in either raw damage or survivability. We either sacrifice energy or several combo points to get our cc's up, or use them to get a Recuperate running, or dish out Eviscerates. We can't do all 3 at once; Yet, it seems to be intended that we do all 3 at once.

[Sci]

We were spoilt by Cata Legendaries... good times but expectations may have been too high.

[Incineration]

We were spoilt by Cata Legendaries... good times but expectations may have been too high.

No, we weren't. People who claim we were have no idea what they're talking about.

- The daggers had the same ilvl as any other HC/Conquest weapon, and therefore gave no direct stat-advantage
- The legendary proc was useless outside of PvE, giving us no PvP advantage either
- The proc itself was rather unreliable and, even in the best of cases, didn't net us an insane advantage over the other classes. A warrior or a Mage still made for good rivals.
- The legendary features of the daggers were absolutely pathetic; a slow-fall on a 5-minute cooldown and NOTHING else...?! Ridiculous.
- The legendary proc didn't really become "legendary" until the change to poisons, when 5.0 hit live, upon which it'd proc extensively in PvE; giving us the edge we SHOULD have had when the daggers and the content were still relevant

All in all, the daggers were quite disappointing, and anyone thinking of it as a high-point in the history of Roguecraft should get some standards.

They were orange!

That's the only real benefit they provided us.

[DrasumNato]

I think being "nerfed" will make you one of the few to actually get better at the game and your class rather than playing a warrior, mage, or warlock.
The only thing "nerfing" does, or should do, is get you to find out new ways to kill the enemy whether its from situational uses or figuring out when to pop your cd's based on the opponents.

[Itisamuh]

I think prep being baseline will be a good fix. The damage is fine, it just comes down to having to choose between having cooldowns (base cooldowns were increased for this expansion, making prep that much more necessary) and mobility in shadowstep. Having access to both, rogues may not be the best class (they never were without legendary weapons and overpowered raid gear, which are not class mechanics) but they will certainly be fun to play again.

[Coldkil]

I have the perfect example right here.

Yesterday evening a friend of mine was doing 2v2 - he's maybe not the best PvPer but he knows how to play properly (better than me for sure :3). He was playing a boomkin/dpriest comp - so not an extremely powerful one.

He found a rogue comp: while it was extremely fun to hear him ranting against the rogue (stun, blind, gouge, vanish, mindnumbing, etc), in the end the question that made him shut up was "While the rogue was doing all this kind of things to you, have you been ever in risk of dying?".

You all know the answer. We are a good class, and our situation isn't that bad, especially in PvE. But having a wide arsenal of tools doesn't automatically mean we're effective. To be honest, most of the tools we have aren't effective or useful at all.

Repeating myself from some time ago:
- Are we supposed to be about control? Give us strong control and normal damage.
- Are we supposed to be about damage? Give us strong damage and comparable control with the other classes.

Being in the middle-ground of everything doesn't mean we can do everything, means that we're not good at anything.

EDIT: keep in mind that the current situation is exacerbated by PvP; in PvE we're actually competitive and we can dish decent numbers but the problem isn't about numbers.

[Injin]

Yea that would make sense if it wasn't for them giving every single melee some one shot macro skill for mop lol.

It is kind of comical.

For some reason being two shotted from stealth is annoying but having someone you can see run up to you and do it isn't as much. Heavy hitting melee plate wearers are still around but rogues traditional playstyle is gone.

Ambush should act like this - a huge damage nuke which leaves us without energy/drains all energy/disables stealth for a while or something. In, nuke hard, die if you get caught. Won't happen though, I know.

---------- Post added 2013-01-07 at 10:49 AM ----------

I have the perfect example right here.

Yesterday evening a friend of mine was doing 2v2 - he's maybe not the best PvPer but he knows how to play properly (better than me for sure :3). He was playing a boomkin/dpriest comp - so not an extremely powerful one.

He found a rogue comp: while it was extremely fun to hear him ranting against the rogue (stun, blind, gouge, vanish, mindnumbing, etc), in the end the question that made him shut up was "While the rogue was doing all this kind of things to you, have you been ever in risk of dying?".

You all know the answer. We are a good class, and our situation isn't that bad, especially in PvE. But having a wide arsenal of tools doesn't automatically mean we're effective. To be honest, most of the tools we have aren't effective or useful at all.

Repeating myself from some time ago:
- Are we supposed to be about control? Give us strong control and normal damage.
- Are we supposed to be about damage? Give us strong damage and comparable control with the other classes.

Being in the middle-ground of everything doesn't mean we can do everything, means that we're not good at anything.

EDIT: keep in mind that the current situation is exacerbated by PvP; in PvE we're actually competitive and we can dish decent numbers but the problem isn't about numbers.

Quite so, the problem is rogues can go and wash the dishes and not lose too much dps providing the boss stays in auto attack range. ;p

[Disgustipated]

- Are we supposed to be about control? Give us good control and normal damage.

You mean 4.2?

[Coldkil]

You mean 4.2?

4.2 was nothing about control and all about OP burst and shadowdance kills.

[Disgustipated]

4.2 was nothing about control and all about OP burst and shadowdance kills.

Not on our part, no.

Quit speculating and get your facts straight.

[D3athsting]

No, we weren't. People who claim we were have no idea what they're talking about.

- The daggers had the same ilvl as any other HC/Conquest weapon, and therefore gave no direct stat-advantage
- The legendary proc was useless outside of PvE, giving us no PvP advantage either
- The proc itself was rather unreliable and, even in the best of cases, didn't net us an insane advantage over the other classes. A warrior or a Mage still made for good rivals.
- The legendary features of the daggers were absolutely pathetic; a slow-fall on a 5-minute cooldown and NOTHING else...?! Ridiculous.
- The legendary proc didn't really become "legendary" until the change to poisons, when 5.0 hit live, upon which it'd proc extensively in PvE; giving us the edge we SHOULD have had when the daggers and the content were still relevant

All in all, the daggers were quite disappointing, and anyone thinking of it as a high-point in the history of Roguecraft should get some standards.

They were orange!

That's the only real benefit they provided us.

Incineration is always right, Dragonwrath was waaaaay more powerful than daggers for being a t12 weapon, many casters (maybe all who got it) used it for hc ds and many managed to get it even months after DS release (and not for epeen matters), our proc was unpredictable and could go from being 100% useful to 100% useless, i remember having them proc in the exact moment when i had to move away from zon'ozz to let void of unmaking hit him or during ultraxion's hour of twilight and hagara's phase change, plus with combat spec you were lucky if you got 3 procs during an entire fight so compared to arcane mage extra AB they got from dragonwrath the daggers were sh*t.

[Ripley6174]

Repeating myself from some time ago:
- Are we supposed to be about control? Give us strong control and normal damage.

That's exactly what you have. Name one class that has more control over their opponents than Rogue?

[Moxi]

Incineration is always right, Dragonwrath was waaaaay more powerful than daggers for being a t12 weapon, many casters (maybe all who got it) used it for hc ds and many managed to get it even months after DS release (and not for epeen matters), our proc was unpredictable and could go from being 100% useful to 100% useless, i remember having them proc in the exact moment when i had to move away from zon'ozz to let void of unmaking hit him or during ultraxion's hour of twilight and hagara's phase change, plus with combat spec you were lucky if you got 3 procs during an entire fight so compared to arcane mage extra AB they got from dragonwrath the daggers were sh*t.

The Deathwing sword 2H was basically a purple legendary.

[ro9ue]

Yea the daggers weren't as powerful as everyone claims for PvP. Even in PvE that weren't as much of a dps upgrade as Dragonwrath. You can see that as soon as a caster would get Dragonwrath, their dps would nearly double - that is not an exaggeration. I would say our guild was in the ballpark of 100k dps for each of us when our casters upgrade to heroic death wing weapons. When they went back to Dragonwrath it was 160-180k dps.

Any end game rogue would tell you that our proc was incredibly weak, for Assassin you got to spam envenom for a few seconds and maybe put up a free 5pt recoup if needed, but other than that the dps increase was MAYBE 5k.

PvP, you needed considerable uptime on the target for it to be worth it. You could make some use out of it like keeping up a 5pt recoup or redirecting a 5pt KS with a 5pt rupture, but nothing to the level of a double combustion or double starsurge from Dragonwrath.


Right now in MoP, I haven't done any high end raids or PvP yet as I've been busy with real life. But I'm still Assassination and I feel incredibly powerful in random bgs and LFR. My gear is on par with most of the people I encounter - a mix of 463 heroic blues, a few LFR epics and some PVP gear. Maybe at a high MMR / heroic tier it's terrible and that's not for me to judge, but I doubt Blizzard cares as much about that 2% of the playerbase.



Also this control vs burst argument is incredibly moot these days. Every other class has been given a shit load of utility since that argument was valid during vanilla and early BC. A rogue stunlock/silence/disarm isn't any better than a warriors, feral, shadowpriest, frost mage... go down the list. Control is across the board now.

[Taiknee]

I think the reason is a mix between getting talents that aren't attractive and not getting much of anything new in MoP - mainly because rogues already had so many tools and were very strong in Cata. In a way, it felt like rogues were neglected, even though they weren't.

In a way, the 1 minute CD on trinkets is a direct buff for sub rogue burst because it lines up perfectly with SD. Also, it looks like Blizz is revising some of the talents to be more attractive and *I think* giving prep baseline, but not sure if I dreamt that or read it somewhere.

[Incineration]

The Deathwing sword 2H was basically a purple legendary.

And on that same note; The legendary daggers were essentially orange epics.
Never mind the fact that we actually didn't have any Madness epics. Did anyone else notice? The dagger from Hagaara was just a regular dagger, and the dagger from Madness was also just a regular dagger. Why didn't we get a similar "madness proc"? My guess would be, because our "madness weapon" was painted orange.