So now that you've had time to gather your thoughts...

[sacrypheyes]

should you take it "objectively", gw2 is not as much (not at all actually) a grindy game as previous MMOs unless you're looking to get yourself 3 legendary items per character.
but then it's like complaining cars are expensive because you litteraly had to sell your family members to buy yourself a ferrari...

just sayin...

[Fencers]

Oh, I don't know about that. Leveling in GW2 is a bit slow. Probably more "grindy" in that aspect than a lot of newer MMOs. With the only other recent MMO comparable being SWTOR- which also had sluggish leveling at times.

Not that GW2 leveling is too overbearing or anything. But certainly is slower than say Tera or Rift, for example.

[Stellan]

ever heard of events scattered around the map? You don't see events as PvE?

From my experience there is a 'lot' of PVE but it is extremely repetitive.

[Doozerjun]

Oh, I don't know about that. Leveling in GW2 is a bit slow. Probably more "grindy" in that aspect than a lot of newer MMOs. With the only other recent MMO comparable being SWTOR- which also had sluggish leveling at times.

Not that GW2 leveling is too overbearing or anything. But certainly is slower than say Tera or Rift, for example.

I usually agree with what you say, or at least understand where you are coming from. But this comment has me baffled. GW2 is about the quickest I've seen for leveling. Certainly quicker than those two games you used as an example.

[Arog]

Would you recommend this game to someone who quit WoW because it was too time consuming, but still misses the fun that I had playing it?

I would, for this exact reason too. I had quit WoW recently due to the time it required but still missed the MMO gameplay and I found this to be the perfect game for me. I highly recommend this to anyone just looking for a VERY casual MMO game.

[Miatela]

Funny how people experience certain points quite different. My thoughts on your comment:

And isn't that just the beauty of things? We all have different opinions otherwise we would all probably just play the same game!

1.) As I see it the personal story is meant to be played alongside leveling, it has a natural flow since you visit places where leveling leads you. Exploring and leveling makes you familiar with a location, when you enter the personal story mission on the recommended level (it's indicated in the top right corner) most of the time you have leveled in that area. Now when you enter the PS-mission you experience this place with a new flavour. If you are higher in level you will get scaled down to the mission-level and everything is fine.

It would make no sense to play the PS without the leveling, since you need an appropriate level to enter the mission anyway. There might be a design problem with the game since it doesn't consider a race leveling in another race's areas. This, I agree, would feel a bit odd, if you don't know the area where your PS takes place.

Of course! I completely agree that the personal story should be played in addition to levelling however there came moments where I would complete a level 35 section of my personal story only to be funnelled towards a zone that is level 45. At this point I found myself simply wandering around in a rather aimless fashion, into totally unrelated zones to attempt to get those few levels which results in the overall experience feeling rather disjointed.

Sure, the scaling is great - if you are above the level required and often to reach such a point you need to take a plunge into a totally unknown zone and help the NPCs you can't relate to in the slightest. With other MMOs you are often left with a feeling of purpose - I know why I am here and what I need to fulfil and I haven't yet had a similar experience in GW2.

2.) I guess the problem is that some people aren't quite familiar with the gamedesign. There are no tanks here who keep mobs away from you and no healer who correct your mistakes. You rely on yourself and everyone who enters a dungeon without defensive stats on his gear (vitality, toughness) should really reconsider. Good players manage glass cannon playstyle, but that is definitely not for everyone. Getting oneshot is, in most cases, the fault of the player.

You would be mistaken. I went into the game knowing full well the intent behind the lack of a triad and I had previously played games with a similar structure (Phantasy Star Online, Phantasy Star Universe and a small dabble in Phantasy Star Online 2 despite having no comprehension of Japanese) where there are no tanks and you look out for yourself and getting one shot is always the fault of the player. Such a structure worked and was entertaining in these games. So far, I can't say the same for GW2. Things feel messy and hectic and not in a good way.

3.) I agree mostly, loved the Wintersday activities and the scavenger-hunt puzzle-missions in the Halloween event, but the Karka-zerg was just bad. It was a onetime event and they corrected this with Tixx: Wintersday events could be done whenever you wanted, after Tixx went to Lions Arch.

Unfortunately I never got the opportunity to play through the Wintersday event. It is good that the developers have listened to how poorly received Lost Shores was and hopefully they will keep this in mind for the supposedly massive content update that is coming.

4.) Well at the moment I'm lv.80 with 2 characters and I've accumulated enough money that travelfees are no problem at all. I see that it can be a problem in the beginning, but I also don't see why someone would travel the whole time at a low level. Leveling through hearts and events is possible without travel since hearts are not too far away from each other and events happen between those. Yes, if you want to play with friends, you need traveling... but thats once. No idea why people think they have to port around all the time. Doesn't it feel more natural to you to run and explore the world a bit? Well Anet encourages this view since you have to pay for traveling. Much better though than sitting on a autopilot flying mount and spending 20min to reach a certain location.

The different means of travel is a matter of opinion. Paying for travel is definitely a problem in the beginning and especially if you want to play with friends. I have also found myself, on numerous occasions, reaching the end of a zone and being too low levelled to go into either of the adjoining rectangles. As a player who hasn't been through the content before and has an idea of where to go the most obvious places to check out are the starting zones. Heading back and forth around this area can easily increase in cost over time. Sure I could run through the zones, occasionally smacking a deer in my way or such like, but doing so becomes a drag when you are doing it for the fifth or sixth time. It does increase the feeling of adventure and exploration but it doesn't do much for the feeling of fun.

5.) I currently have 5 bank-storage spaces and I haven't spent a cent for gems. Gold to Gems works as a charm, just use the trading post wisely and you will have no problem with money in GW2. People who ignore the trading post and accumulate tons of crafting-mats they don't even need... well, it's their own fault really.

This is what I do. However, it doesn't mean that the decision by ArenaNet to severely limit space and then make the method to increase related to money transactions is any more reasonable.

[Liquidsteel]

ever heard of events scattered around the map? You don't see events as PvE?

Maarius I think you are taking the term PVE a bit too literally. Whilst anything which involves fighting against the AI can be deemed PVE, when discussing it on a primarily warcraft and mmo based website, when people say GW2 has a lack of PVE content, they are referring to (mostly) end game content such a dungeons and raids.

GW2 is a fantastic game for the price, but I did burn out rather quickly with how long it takes to level, and there didn't seem to be any large scale pve-content at endgame. Just people farming events in Orr, which does not appeal to me.

[xizzu]

Maarius I think you are taking the term PVE a bit too literally. Whilst anything which involves fighting against the AI can be deemed PVE, when discussing it on a primarily warcraft and mmo based website, when people say GW2 has a lack of PVE content, they are referring to (mostly) end game content such a dungeons and raids.

GW2 is a fantastic game for the price, but I did burn out rather quickly with how long it takes to level, and there didn't seem to be any large scale pve-content at endgame. Just people farming events in Orr, which does not appeal to me.

Erm, the only thing that sub based mmos have more than gw2 is raids, imo gw2 have plenty of dungeons for lvl 80.

[Vegas82]

GW2 isn't at all similar to the fun you had playing WoW, I'd keep looking for a new game.

[Kerome]

Just to add to the discussion: the one thing I really miss coming from WoW is the deeper per-zone story element. In WoW every once in a while you'd stumble across a zone-defining quest line like the one leading up to the Mines in Westfall, which takes you all over the map and ends with an epic event of some sort. They were the high point of each zone, and don't really have an equivalent in GW2. Instead you get group event zergs, which are admittedly also fun, but not as varied.

The personal story adds a lot of interest though, and alternating between it and the zone content keeps you busy.

I may well level a second 80 in this game just for the story, and the different zones and events. Which will make this the first mmo since wow which enticed me to take to characters to the cap, which AoC, CoH and Aion failed to do in between.

[Karizee]

Of course! I completely agree that the personal story should be played in addition to levelling however there came moments where I would complete a level 35 section of my personal story only to be funnelled towards a zone that is level 45. At this point I found myself simply wandering around in a rather aimless fashion, into totally unrelated zones to attempt to get those few levels which results in the overall experience feeling rather disjointed.

Sure, the scaling is great - if you are above the level required and often to reach such a point you need to take a plunge into a totally unknown zone and help the NPCs you can't relate to in the slightest. With other MMOs you are often left with a feeling of purpose - I know why I am here and what I need to fulfil and I haven't yet had a similar experience in GW2.

You would be mistaken. I went into the game knowing full well the intent behind the lack of a triad and I had previously played games with a similar structure (Phantasy Star Online, Phantasy Star Universe and a small dabble in Phantasy Star Online 2 despite having no comprehension of Japanese) where there are no tanks and you look out for yourself and getting one shot is always the fault of the player. Such a structure worked and was entertaining in these games. So far, I can't say the same for GW2. Things feel messy and hectic and not in a good way.

Unfortunately I never got the opportunity to play through the Wintersday event. It is good that the developers have listened to how poorly received Lost Shores was and hopefully they will keep this in mind for the supposedly massive content update that is coming.

The different means of travel is a matter of opinion. Paying for travel is definitely a problem in the beginning and especially if you want to play with friends. I have also found myself, on numerous occasions, reaching the end of a zone and being too low levelled to go into either of the adjoining rectangles. As a player who hasn't been through the content before and has an idea of where to go the most obvious places to check out are the starting zones. Heading back and forth around this area can easily increase in cost over time. Sure I could run through the zones, occasionally smacking a deer in my way or such like, but doing so becomes a drag when you are doing it for the fifth or sixth time. It does increase the feeling of adventure and exploration but it doesn't do much for the feeling of fun.

This is what I do. However, it doesn't mean that the decision by ArenaNet to severely limit space and then make the method to increase related to money transactions is any more reasonable.

It sounds like you prefer games that offer the linear questing model, one that I grew to detest, one that you may as well be in a trench marching along with everyone in the same direction towards dungeons that are merely loot tubes at the end.

Not saying one is better than the other, there's no accounting for personal tastes and what one person finds enjoyable another sees as rubbish.

[Coolit]

I can tell you from my 6 years of experience in WoW, I will never go back since playing GW2. It doesn't mean WoW is a bad game, it just means my preferences have changed, and frankly, I find WoW to be far too time-consuming for my lifestyle now. I have a lot of fun in GW2, and I can do it at my pace.

---------- Post added 2013-01-07 at 12:48 PM ----------



I wouldn't go by what this person says. This is not true for everyone. I personally have 3 level 80's, and a lot of goals for each of them. Not tired of the game at all. I am still discovering things I haven't done or seen yet, too. There is plenty to keep you busy at 80.

I feel the same my focus has changed over the years but unfortunately WoW has remained the same game in general so I no longer have any interest in playing it. GW2 fits in perfectly with my lifestyle, I don’t feel obligated to play to remain current and there are plenty casual things to do that don’t include raiding or gear grind. I absolutely agree with Fencers also, WoW felt like a marriage but GW2 doesn’t.

[Pion]

That's a really weak stance, though. It can apply to anything. When we talk about grinds, all we can really talk about is how much of a grind it objectively is (Number of mats, amount of real time to farm, number of quests, etc etc).

When you start bringing in things like "what you make of it" then you're really not discussing the game mechanics at all. You could point at anything and claim it's not a grind because you can "just not make a grind of it".

hmm your right. but the big difference for me is that i dont need all that stuff asap i got 80.

thats why i said "what you make of it". 50 silver into green lvl 80 items and you are absolutly fine for everything (except the higher lvls of the fractals). i dont need to farm my equip fast because the next patch is incoming and everybody else will kill me in WvW or i cant do any pve anymore. i can sit right now on my green items and farm slowly in the way i want it.

hope it stays that way... i´m a little bit afraid of the asca....uh pink item tier.

[Kittyvicious]

Erm, the only thing that sub based mmos have more than gw2 is raids, imo gw2 have plenty of dungeons for lvl 80.

Oh really?

Reputation, Dailies, Solo/small group dungeons, personal housing, farms/pet battles/space/mingames, lots of collectibles - mounts, pets, artifacts, lore items, etc....

I could go on. I think GW2 is brilliant, but let's not make ridiculous claims. It doesn't have 10% of what some other MMOs have, but that's not really the point. What they do have was approached from a different and refreshing angle, so that it is distinguished from other things out there. We don't need to falsely believe that this game has the same amount of content as other games.

It only matters if what content they do have is enjoyable and time consuming enough for you. For me, it is definitely not. It doesn't mean I don't think it's a great game.

[Doozerjun]

Some of those activities are certainly valid although GW2 does have a few of those that you listed such as mini games pets, and dailies. Lore items, well not sure you can include that can you? I mean just because they have xp involved for other games doesn't mean GW2 doesn't have similar stuff but I digress there are some other fun activities that GW2 can certainly add. However, you very well know that when people talk about end game in mmos they are talking about raids.

[xizzu]

Oh really?

Reputation, Dailies, Solo/small group dungeons, personal housing, farms/pet battles/space/mingames, lots of collectibles - mounts, pets, artifacts, lore items, etc....

I could go on. I think GW2 is brilliant, but let's not make ridiculous claims. It doesn't have 10% of what some other MMOs have, but that's not really the point. What they do have was approached from a different and refreshing angle, so that it is distinguished from other things out there. We don't need to falsely believe that this game has the same amount of content as other games.

It only matters if what content they do have is enjoyable and time consuming enough for you. For me, it is definitely not. It doesn't mean I don't think it's a great game.

Hats off to you sir, since i generalised (by refering to sub based mmos) you are right. I considered only the things that i find enjoyable, so yeah other sub based mmos have plenty of content outside dungeons and raids. My apologies.

[Kittyvicious]

Some of those activities are certainly valid although GW2 does have a few of those that you listed such as mini games pets, and dailies.

I didn't feel like elaborating, but the implementation of these things that you say they 'have' are a shadow of what they are in other games. Also, I made sure to include them as a larger, overarching category. SWTOR is the only mainstream game that has less content than GW2...well maybe Tera too.

The point is there isn't so much you build up to, things you progress on other than Map completion and your gear/legendaries. For a lot of people, this is what keeps them playing.

Lore items, well not sure you can include that can you? I mean just because they have xp involved for other games doesn't mean GW2 doesn't have similar stuff

I don't recall GW2 having items you hunt or search for that can be collected and add to the story. If I'm just forgetting some huge portion of gameplay, then call me senile early. I don't remember that at all.

but I digress there are some other fun activities that GW2 can certainly add. However, you very well know that when people talk about end game in mmos they are talking about raids.

Not even Blizzard is talking about end game as being simply raids anymore. That's an outdated notion. Thank god GW2 didn't go that route, or else it would be a much different (and worse) game.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 10:26 AM ----------

I considered only the things that i find enjoyable, so yeah other sub based mmos have plenty of content outside dungeons and raids.

And that's perfectly fine. It's why I say that GW2 has enough for plenty of people, others won't see it the same way. It's why I can objectively say that it's a great game even though I don't continue playing it.

I think a lot of people would be upset if they started pursuing a larger portion of the MMO market by adding things like this, but who knows, right? It seems like the game has a very cohesive and solid design. I'd rather not see it start to add on tacky features to become the FotM MMO. I do feel like the company can do a solid job adding features though, so maybe this will be a game that slowly evolves into an even better game with broader appeal.

[Doozerjun]

I don't recall GW2 having items you hunt or search for that can be collected and add to the story. If I'm just forgetting some huge portion of gameplay, then call me senile early. I don't remember that at all.

Well I took this as you meant stuff like the codex from swtor and stuff in a similar vein. You can find all kinds of lore stuff in GW2 out in the world (books, items and such) but it doesn't give you an official credit like it does in swtor or other games. Kind of similar to how it is in skyrim with the books there. Just because you don't have an official collection count with it doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Kittyvicious]

Well I took this as you meant stuff like the codex from swtor and stuff in a similar vein. You can find all kinds of lore stuff in GW2 out in the world (books, items and such) but it doesn't give you an official credit like it does in swtor or other games. Kind of similar to how it is in skyrim with the books there. Just because you don't have an official collection count with it doesn't mean it isn't there.

You're right, but that probably only satisfies people into RP/Lore nerds. Even in Rift you can 'collect' literal lore books that you find in the world so that you can read them whenever you like. In a game that has a persistent world, people like accomplishing things and progressing their character. Without a way to track this, that sense of achievement is gone for 99% of people.

It's not even so that people can wag their epeens around, but they want to be able to look for themselves and see what they have done. Without a way to do that, or to easily recall a story (like Rift lore books), it's hard to really feel involved and like you are progressing through a world.

I mean the same principle can be seen in a game like Minecraft. While there doesn't need to be an artificial system in place for this, the same concept is there. You want to be able to look and see what you have done, where you have been, what you have accomplished.

Most MMOs don't let you seriously alter the world, so you have no concrete proof you were there. You have no effects of your actions. These artifical systems, like achievements and collections, allow you to have a psuedo-experience of that nature.

[Doozerjun]

To be clear, I really like all that collection stuff. One of my favorite parts of Warhammer Online was that part.