Winning against undergeared people is not rewarding

[Lemonpartyfan]

I agree... .-. Some of us just don't either enjoy participating in PvP as much as the others... And I just really don't like how they can judge someone by how geared they are? It's alright, I think, to just go through the game without having to devote as much to PvP like some others. And certainly, not that I've done it, but I don't think beating an unfortunately-undergeared player is very rewarding or cool.

I don't think the debate is actually whether beating lesser geared players is actually fun or cool. Its more some people trying to justify changing to game to suit their wants. (You know, instead of finding a game more appropriate to what they want) And the other side thinks people should be rewarded for time and effort spent with gear. So, someone who has played all season should have better gear than someone who had just started.

This is not a game you "beat." In my opinion, the whole game is a grind, you grind for gear, rating, reputation whatever else you want. You grind down bosses, other players, NPCS, whatever it is needed.Taking the grind out of a game that has always been grind/gear centric is just wrong. Again, if you love the "equal gear at all times" feature, play a game with it. You have just as much opportunity as anyone else to play. Blizzard does not limit you and allow other more time.

If anything, they should fix/punish people who cheat and bot, and perhaps make the difference in gear item levels a bit less harsh. Has anyone actually done the math to see if they differences are actually bigger? Or if it jusst seems that way because the numbers are that much bigger?

[Akaviri]

Haha, no, I know about not beating WoW! ^^ c: I meant, defeating another playing, not the game itself, by any means!

And, I understand, though.... I don't really agree with 'all-equal-gearing', I think it makes the game more interesting to try and work harder to get better gear and just become a better player altogether. I was just speaking for those who are judged by their gear, like, have a label put on them, like they're not a good player, y'know? Like, it isn't all about PvPing.

[Niberion]

5.2 changes: you earn more conquest points if you started late, wintraders and high rated players will still roll their faces over you due gear differences. Muaha.

It's nice when they think they solved a problem but they didn't really solve the problem.

[Lemonpartyfan]

5.2 changes: you earn more conquest points if you started late, wintraders and high rated players will still roll their faces over you due gear differences. Muaha.

It's nice when they think they solved a problem but they didn't really solve the problem.

Stop spamming this same crappy line everywhere. Maybe if you were out practicing you would win more games and whine less. If you are so disgusted with this game, go play a different game.

You probably know a lot less about the problems than the devs do, sorry. This has also not been implemented yet, so you have no idea how it will turn out. Less QQ please.

[Niberion]

Stop spamming this same crappy line everywhere. Maybe if you were out practicing you would win more games and whine less. If you are so disgusted with this game, go play a different game.

It's the truth, the average joe will need 15 weeks to get a t2 weapon, over 4 months that is, by then 5.3 is released, item upgrading is back and anyone with a high cap that didn't waste all his points will instantly upgrade almost every single piece of gear he has.

So, how does this fix the problem of overgeared people beating undergeared people? It doesn't, it just gives you false hope.

You probably know a lot less about the problems than the devs do, sorry. This has also not been implemented yet, so you have no idea how it will turn out. Less QQ please.

How is this QQ? I'm more like laughing at a joke, because that's what the change is. It changes nothing about the fact that overgeared players will still faceroll undergeared players and that the average joe still won't get a t2 weapon in his hands due the ridiculous conquestpoint requirement.

A high ranked player in RBG/arena will have full gear with T2 after 2 months, after that he can choose to buy elite gear, which is just a recollored version, or save up for 5.3 to upgrade all his gear at once.
The average player will need roughly 4.5 months to get full gear with T2, by that time, 5.3 will be released and they'll be a whole tier behind due item upgrading.

[strangerdanger]

Some people get beat because they are undergeared and some people get beat because they are just bad.

People are expecting things to get handed to them but they eventually just need to realize that they might just not be as good as they think are.

[Thelxi]

I completely agree, and basically outgearing people is the curse of MMO pvp for me across the board. Yes even in supposedly fair games like GW2 most of your WvW kills will come from scaled up level whatevers with shit stats and specs.

[Lemonpartyfan]

Some people get beat because they are undergeared and some people get beat because they are just bad.

People are expecting things to get handed to them but they eventually just need to realize that they might just not be as good as they think are.

Agree with this wholly. Some people can't accept that they might not be that great. Instead they blame class balance and of course the gear (which everyone has the opportunity to get)

[Reith]

It's the truth, the average joe will need 15 weeks to get a t2 weapon, over 4 months that is, by then 5.3 is released, item upgrading is back and anyone with a high cap that didn't waste all his points will instantly upgrade almost every single piece of gear he has.

So, how does this fix the problem of overgeared people beating undergeared people? It doesn't, it just gives you false hope.

You don't know if Conquest gear will ever be upgradable again after 5.2. People have been voicing their concerns over this a lot and I highly doubt they're going to allow it again after they disable it. They'll probably make non-tyrannical gear upgradable and that's it. They'll find other ways for high-rated players to use those points.

[lolalola]

I completely agree, and basically outgearing people is the curse of MMO pvp for me across the board. Yes even in supposedly fair games like GW2 most of your WvW kills will come from scaled up level whatevers with shit stats and specs.

I agree the normalization is not perfect, but it does provide a more fair playing field. Same in SWTOR. Fights which are otherwise predetermined now allow a good player to beat a bad, but higher level or better geared, player.

[Whitey]

A high ranked player in RBG/arena will have full gear with T2 after 2 months, after that he can choose to buy elite gear, which is just a recollored version, or save up for 5.3 to upgrade all his gear at once.
The average player will need roughly 4.5 months to get full gear with T2, by that time, 5.3 will be released and they'll be a whole tier behind due item upgrading.

But it's really the weapons that are the real issue, not the gear as a whole.

[bt4]

As long as they don't normalize stats with a buff/debuff in arena it will remain a piece of shit.
Why play a game that is centered arround playing each week x hours for gear if you can play countless other games that offer fair pvp ?

[Boogar]

when you ding level 90, you dont have to enter even one bg to buy yourself the ilvl 450 pvp gear from ah, gives you more solid beginning... it does not require as much honor to fill the slots up with pvp stats equipment, there is still shitloads of honor for tol barad or you can convert the justice points into honor, if you have pve heroic gear make a guild group and run a few dungeons, you gonna have full dreadful after a day...
then theres the conquest of course, skilled players and wintraders are able to hit solid rating even with full dreadful, the malevolent gear does not provide such a huge pvp stats boost, only difference is the weapon, but that should really take at least some effort to get.

Its not about the fairness in random battlegrounds! Go play rated battlegrounds or arenas at higher level, gear is normalized there, cause everybody is fully geared... In random bgs its about the sense of progression of your character, it gives meaning to playing those bgs to get more honor to get the upgrade to become stronger, its an MMO, every developer should understand that thats the core of massively multiplayer online games. If you are good and really take that time to get the best gear you possibly can the game is gonna reward you for that, you gonna be stronger than most enemies in random bgs. Atm the gear is normalized only in challenge modes, and thats the only place where gear normalization should be because its static pve content meant to last the whole expansion.
As people are saying, if you want the game to not be about gear go play GW2 pvp, some moba game or whatever, wow was, is and always will be about the gear.

[Lemonpartyfan]

As long as they don't normalize stats with a buff/debuff in arena it will remain a piece of shit.
Why play a game that is centered arround playing each week x hours for gear if you can play countless other games that offer fair pvp ?

I don't think you understand the concept of fairness.

[lolalola]

As long as they don't normalize stats with a buff/debuff in arena it will remain a piece of shit.
Why play a game that is centered arround playing each week x hours for gear if you can play countless other games that offer fair pvp ?

At some point in their WoW carreer a player slaps him- or herself on the forehead and says: "How could I ever have been so ignorant spending so much time grinding when I could've done so many other fun things". To which a WoW player who hasn't come to that point replies "Well, then, f... off". And indeed, she did. Such posts aren't welcome here though; quit posts are not tolerated.

[bt4]

I don't think you understand the concept of fairness.

it's you who doesn't,
I know what you think. Since everyone can get the gear it's fair. But that can be easily extended: everyone could attempt to hack blizz servers, everyone could buy a decked out character. All have the same options so it's fair and yet noone wants that right?

A good pvp game allows competing without needing to invest months to get equal chances. The gear dependency of pvp runs counter to it.
If you set stats in stone for arena and bgs you get another benefit out of it: you can put any stats you want on pvp gear as a reward since they don't matter for the competition.
This would give actually more freedom to reward players

At some point in their WoW carreer a player slaps him- or herself on the forehead and says: "How could I ever have been so ignorant spending so much time grinding when I could've done so many other fun things". To which a WoW player who hasn't come to that point replies "Well, then, f... off". And indeed, she did. Such posts aren't welcome here though; quit posts are not tolerated.

the game is big, realizing that one aspect of the game is not worth playing doesn't necessary equal to giving up on the game completly, personally i liked challenge modes and the level phase with a new addon is always fun if you run it with rl friends

[Lemonpartyfan]

it's you who doesn't,
I know what you think. Since everyone can get the gear it's fair. But that can be easily extended: everyone could attempt to hack blizz servers, everyone could buy a decked out character. All have the same options so it's fair and yet noone wants that right?

A good pvp game allows competing without needing to invest months to get equal chances. The gear dependency of pvp runs counter to it.
If you set stats in stone for arena and bgs you get another benefit out of it: you can put any stats you wont on pvp gear as a reward since they don't matter for the competition.
This would give actually more freedom to reward players

Your two examples are against the rules. Cheating is a separate issue.

Again, learn the concept of fairness.

[bt4]

Your two examples are against the rules. Cheating is a separate issue.

Again, learn the concept of fairness.

Fairness is a concept based on consensus what the rules are.
It doesn't matter what the event manager sets as rules, it's based on the players consensus. If all agree to cheat it's just as fair as if all don't.
In wow high rated arena noone cares how you got a character, only thing that is really condemned are those scrubs who ddos players over skype as an attack vector.
It's simply a different crowd that sees the whole character progression as a hindrance to the real content they want to play.

[Lemonpartyfan]

Fairness is a concept based on consensus what the rules are.
It doesn't matter what the event manager sets as rules, it's based on the players consensus. If all agree to cheat it's just as fair as if all don't.
In wow high rated arena noone cares how you got a character, only thing that is really condemned are those scrubs who ddos players over skype as an attack vector.
It's simply a different crowd that sees the whole character progression as a hindrance to the real content they want to play.

Wrong. Cheating is a totally separate issue. Do not try to use it as a debate topic when talking about fairness. that is a fallacy.

fair1 [fair] Show IPA adjective, fair·er, fair·est, adverb, fair·er, fair·est, noun, verb.
adjective
1.
free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: a fair decision; a fair judge.
2.
legitimately sought, pursued, done, given, etc.; proper under the rules: a fair fight.

If you cannot understand the concept of fairness, I have bolded it for you. So again, cheating has no place while speaking on the concept of fairness.

[lolalola]

[...]

the game is big, realizing that one aspect of the game is not worth playing doesn't necessary equal to giving up on the game completly, personally i liked challenge modes

1) PvP, I CBA to grind. Which means given the amount of people in the open world, that in world PvP you're going to get owned. Same with rated BG and arena.
2) PvE, I CBA to grind either. HMs require an ample amount of time to invest in gear, practice, research, and skill. In a single player game you're not nerfing others if you didn't do your homework, but in a MMO, you do. However if I had it my way I'd take the grind from PvE out of the equation and only keep the skill check, which is steep.
3) Which leaves us to challenge mode. Last time I checked I had various ratings top100 ratings here. I thoroughly enjoyed doing them, but you're going to need 5 people who can work together and are online at the same time and so on. I'd love to see this implemented in raids. We'd be able to raid without doing the grind. Isn't that the best of both raiding as well as skill check (challenge mode)? Heaven IMO.
4) ..but once you did the challenge mode, what's there left to do? Pet battles? Well, I actually like that, but I find the grind very boring. In order to advance the quests (which unlocks a decrease in XP required) I need to level up more pets of different type. But that too, costs a massive amount of time, so I gave up.

So that leaves me to seriously consider alternatives. Games without grinds, where you start playing and *boom* you're losing but only because of skill and not because "Bob" is a no-life who plays the game 2 hrs a day (= 14 hrs a week) and still believes he is somehow "casual". What hobby do you play 14 hours and then still consider casual?!

and the level phase with a new addon is always fun if you run it with rl friends

Can you elaborate?