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  1. #61
    yea preset gear is the way to go like the tourny realm

  2. #62
    Competitive PvP should have a perfectly even playing field, or at least as close as is reasonably possible. Losing because you started halfway through a season and it's impossible to catch up to their gear is garbage.
    Just calm down.
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  3. #63
    I agree, Ghostcrawler doesn't get why PVP people at all. Having a gigantic gear disparity (on TOP of the skill disparity) between newcomers and veteran players discourages those new people from wanting to get into PVP in the first place. It's not an inclusive system and something obviously needs to be done.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 10:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    Gearing is what this game is based on and that's never gonna change whether we like it or not.
    Then there is a middle-ground: Lower the gigantic gear disparity instead of nullifying it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 10:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    2s mean absolutely nothing because it's as imbalanced as duels, also, glad doesn't exist in 2s.

    Secondly, class > skill > gear bro.
    Give me a contenders geared warrior and within a week I'm sitting at 2k
    Level a character that is not of an OP class/spec and do what you just said, then talk. Back it up first.
    Last edited by Reith; 2013-01-04 at 04:58 AM.

  4. #64
    there can still be gearing.

    but at some point, it has to stop or drastically slow down. there needs to be some hope for people that were unable to play for a period of time, or started late, to catch up.
    upgrades were a mistake. it's not fun or engaging. all that happens, is the people that have played from day 1 without a break maintain gear advantages over anyone that missed parts of the season.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by jenituls View Post
    yea preset gear is the way to go like the tourny realm
    I think a competitive queue with preset gear is a great idea. But you would cause a massive outlash from a lot of the pvp community i think. What's the point of getting pvp gear with resilience if everyone is avoiding that pvp queue?

  6. #66
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Never played 5on5 right? Because with an fresly created team you can get lucky and play against THOSE people because there are so few teams even playing 5on5 that they might aswell remove it.


    How about no? It's Gear > Gear > Class > Gear > Skill.
    Nope, never did 5s... above 2.4k
    And 5s isn't that amazingly balanced. Also, I was talking about 3s, very few people actually do 5s now because of the class balance.

    Also, when gear is so important, why don't you see any high rated rogues or monks? There are fully geared monks and rogues around, yet, so little at a high rating.
    2 rogues above 2.4k it was? Why 90% op the top comps all have the same classes? Because they are so much better then the rest.
    You know why? Because class > skill > gear.

    Place a fully geared mage against a fully geared rogue of equal skill.
    The mage will win.
    Place a fully geared mage with little skill against a fully geared rogue with better skills.
    The rogue will win.
    Place a decent geared mage against a fully geared rogue with equal skills.
    The mage will win.

    The only time where gear > rest, is when the gap is extremely big. However, aside from normal battlegrounds, you will never have full t2 geared players fighting players in green questgear.
    It's an extreme example, but in arena, the gap is small enough to not matter that much. You won't exactly reach the perfect rating where you belong, but you'll get close to it. Gear only starts to matter against people that play the same comp, on the same skill level.


    Level a character that is not of an OP class/spec and do what you just said, then talk. Back it up first.
    It's nice how you aren't fully quoting me, leaving the important part out. To quote myself, I said the following.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    Secondly, class > skill > gear bro.
    Give me a contenders geared warrior and within a week I'm sitting at 2k, give me a fully malevolent rogue, and with some luck I can reach 2k with that.
    Notice the underlined part. The part you left out. I think I made it pretty clear with that example that it is really hard to achieve a higher rating with an underpowered class, despite being fully geared.

    edit: also, that's not a cool move, quoting half a claim, leaving the most important part out of it.
    Last edited by Nicola; 2013-01-04 at 09:55 AM.

  7. #67
    Niberon, these people are usually at EQUAL gear thus negating the advantage and putting a stronger importance on class.

  8. #68
    Niberion, 100% serious, have you tried doing 2s / 3s on an undergeared char?

    A t2 rogue will easily wipe the floor with any undergeared character (including a warrior) in his first dance.

  9. #69
    there is no catch up mechanic.

  10. #70
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iWolfBanei View Post
    Niberion, 100% serious, have you tried doing 2s / 3s on an undergeared char?

    A t2 rogue will easily wipe the floor with any undergeared character (including a warrior) in his first dance.
    I started about 6 weeks late in 3s, within a week I was at 2.3k rating and I didn't even have a t1 weapon.
    Guess why, because class > skills > gear. Not only was I playing with a rather strong comp, I have a lot more experience then all those fotm rerollers that were at that rating.
    I'm not saying that gear doesn't matter, it does matter, just less then the comp and skills you have. A contenders geared warrior will simply beat the fuck out of a fully malevolent geared elemental shaman if the shaman doesn't know how to kite and to fakecast. A bit of an extreme example maybe but it's true.
    Now if you place 2 elemental shamans against each other with equal skills, but one is in contenders and the other in malevolent, then yes, the malevolent geared one wins.
    The class you play and how skilled you are, is simply more important then the gear. The only moments were gear becomes more important is when we are talking about legendaries and ridiculous overpowered trinkets that can change the whole game, as seen previous season.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    I started about 6 weeks late in 3s, within a week I was at 2.3k rating and I didn't even have a t1 weapon.
    Guess why, because class > skills > gear. Not only was I playing with a rather strong comp, I have a lot more experience then all those fotm rerollers that were at that rating.
    I'm not saying that gear doesn't matter, it does matter, just less then the comp and skills you have. A contenders geared warrior will simply beat the fuck out of a fully malevolent geared elemental shaman if the shaman doesn't know how to kite and to fakecast.
    6 weeks late isn't really that much of a big deal. Most people usually miss 2-3 weeks anyway. I didn't cap for the first 3 weeks and I wouldn't consider myself behind at all.

    Anyway, in the Ele vs Warrior situation you gave. I honestly think the Ele would win, in 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3 the Ele would literally fuck the Warrior so hard if they were both of similar skill levels. You say Contenders geared Warrior so I'm assuming he doesn't have weapon, if that is the case he would have literally 0 chance.

  12. #72
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iWolfBanei View Post
    6 weeks late isn't really that much of a big deal. Most people usually miss 2-3 weeks anyway. I didn't cap for the first 3 weeks and I wouldn't consider myself behind at all.

    Anyway, in the Ele vs Warrior situation you gave. I honestly think the Ele would win, in 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3 the Ele would literally fuck the Warrior so hard if they were both of similar skill levels. You say Contenders geared Warrior so I'm assuming he doesn't have weapon, if that is the case he would have literally 0 chance.
    Did I say they were equally skilled? I think I made it pretty clear that the elemental shaman is a total noob, perhaps I should have stated that the warrior knows what he's doing though.
    And maybe my example was a bit too extreme, but a dreadful warrior with at least t1 weapon will easily fuck up an equally skilled malevolent elemental shaman with t2.

    Also, 6 weeks late, means that 2.2k rated players were already getting close to full malevolent with t1 weapon.

  13. #73
    sometimes its fun to blow someone in a cd, but the arena isnt the place for that to happen

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonx View Post
    sometimes its fun to blow someone in a cd, but the arena isnt the place for that to happen
    Here's a solution I think most people could agree with: Normalized stats in arenas (and maybe? RBGs) but everywhere else, gear still matters.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Here's a solution I think most people could agree with: Normalized stats in arenas (and maybe? RBGs) but everywhere else, gear still matters.
    Yep. I think it's what pretty much 98% of the PvP community want, but Ghostcrawler says it isn't so, yolo.

  16. #76
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    Upgraded 466 gear has about 1-5% stat difference between it and 483 gear. 1% in most primaries, 5% in the pvp stats. Getting geared is NOT an issue- you can get a full 466 set within a week by doing all TBs/WGs and winning. Of course, for those who lack time, well, gear is the least of your worries.
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    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Here's a solution I think most people could agree with: Normalized stats in arenas (and maybe? RBGs) but everywhere else, gear still matters.
    Except that simply doesn't work with WoW.
    WoW is all about improving gear, not about sitting in the same gear for the whole expansion. Not that it will work anyway.

    You'll have to balance damage around PvE, non normalized PvP gear and normalized PvP gear. Blizzard already has enough problems with the first 2, no need to make the balancing even harder (PvE and PvP is mainly balanced around being fully geared in case you didn't know yet).

    And as said by the previous poster, as I've said several times as well, the difference is very small and if you ain't going to spend some time on getting gear, then stop whining.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    Except that simply doesn't work with WoW.
    WoW is all about improving gear, not about sitting in the same gear for the whole expansion. Not that it will work anyway.

    You'll have to balance damage around PvE, non normalized PvP gear and normalized PvP gear. Blizzard already has enough problems with the first 2, no need to make the balancing even harder (PvE and PvP is mainly balanced around being fully geared in case you didn't know yet).

    And as said by the previous poster, as I've said several times as well, the difference is very small and if you ain't going to spend some time on getting gear, then stop whining.
    For someone who likes PVP so much, you'd think someone like you would want more people to do it instead of be discouraged to do it.

    ... but hey, logic is for, "whiners," right?

  19. #79
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    For someone who likes PVP so much, you'd think someone like you would want more people to do it instead of be discouraged to do it.

    ... but hey, logic is for, "whiners," right?
    No, pvp without rewards is boring, without progression many people simply wouldn't do it.
    And like I said, it's gonna be even harder to balance everything if you normalize PvP gear for just rated play. Remember that most of the PvP happening right now is non-rated pvp, normal battlegrounds that is.
    Even now, while the balance is mainly around being fully pvp geared, blizzard fails to balance PvP. Do you really think they can balance PvE, rated PvP with normalized gear and non rated PvP with non normalized gear? Right now they are already failing massively on balance.

    Sure I want more people to PvP, but normalizing gear simply isn't the option.
    The only real option I see is splitting every single ability into a PvE part and a PvP part, allowing them to balance PvP without having to care about PvE. But, they've made it pretty clear they are not going to do this.

    If all classes were more balanced, you'll find out that gear really doesn't matter that much. Give a warrior a t2 weapon, and you'll easily notice that, but the difference between an elemental shaman with a t1 or a t2 weapon, hardly noticeable.
    Someone that is 5% better geared is less of a trouble then someone with equal gear that's playing a class that's 30% stronger in PvP.

    I'm not saying nothing should be changed to gear, it defo needs to become easier to catch up if you start late, but right now, getting everything balanced is more important.
    Once the game is well balanced, and you see that gear differences bring problems, then yes, you can start looking for solutions there, but now, it's not that much of a problem.
    Last edited by Nicola; 2013-01-05 at 01:23 PM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    No, pvp without rewards is boring, without progression many people simply wouldn't do it.
    See here's where I think you're wrong. Not only would probably more than half of arena players want normalized stats on gear but normalized gear would actually increase Arena participation. I know so many people who PvE or PvP casually and thus aren't geared enough to compete in Arena so don't do it at all.

    Plus, regarding the rewards, the reward from Arena is titles. Maybe Blizzard could update their ladder to show who is getting what titles throughout the whole season so people can see the Glad/Duelist/Rival/Challenger cutoffs. Also, maybe Blizzard could implement a new 'Elite' gear which changes how your honor gear looks at 1400, 1600, 1800, 2000 and 2200?

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