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  1. #1

    Winning against undergeared people is not rewarding

    I have just read GhostCrawlers lastest posts about PVP and I have never bitched on GC before but I'm stunned a what he is basically saying;

    The latest posts he pretty much said "We believe that people should have better gear if they have played longer". Now I'm all for the grind,we play an RPG and that's the point(even if it is the worst part about the game) but for PvP it can become utterly silly espically so when gear plays such a massive part and the structure is clearly Skill<Class<Gear. You can easily get beat on and lose games for the shear fact that the other team out gears you and I think this is a massive error which needs to be changed.

    The new upgrade system isn't the problem, its the catching up you have to do when you have alts or missed half the season which is the downfall even more when you can only get a certain amount of points each week.Also it wouldnt matter as much if skill was the main factor of you winning. I have had countless duels/arena etc where I have lost due to 10k HP or so when the opponent has outgeared me, if we had the same gear I would of won due to the fact it was an even playing field not "he did XX% more damage than me and had XX% more HP to stop me killing him". Also being unable to kill a healer and having to wait in a arena for 25 mins both /wave /dancing because we couldn't do anything to each other.

    Perhaps the high aboves or GC himself is making the $$ roll out of your bank by making you play longer, I just dont understand.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPie View Post
    I have just read GhostCrawlers lastest posts about PVP and I have never bitched on GC before but I'm stunned a what he is basically saying;

    The latest posts he pretty much said "We believe that people should have better gear if they have played longer". Now I'm all for the grind,we play an RPG and that's the point(even if it is the worst part about the game) but for PvP it can become utterly silly espically so when gear plays such a massive part and the structure is clearly Skill<Class<Gear. You can easily get beat on and lose games for the shear fact that the other team out gears you and I think this is a massive error which needs to be changed.

    The new upgrade system isn't the problem, its the catching up you have to do when you have alts or missed half the season which is the downfall even more when you can only get a certain amount of points each week.Also it wouldnt matter as much if skill was the main factor of you winning. I have had countless duels/arena etc where I have lost due to 10k HP or so when the opponent has outgeared me, if we had the same gear I would of won due to the fact it was an even playing field not "he did XX% more damage than me and had XX% more HP to stop me killing him". Also being unable to kill a healer and having to wait in a arena for 25 mins both /wave /dancing because we couldn't do anything to each other.

    Perhaps the high aboves or GC himself is making the $$ roll out of your bank by making you play longer, I just dont understand.

    This reason alone is why I hate PvP in general.

    When joining Battlegrounds/Arena your gear should be normalized. Wins should be based on tactics/skill and not gear. It's simple mathematics why the current system fails.

    PvP should be something fun you want to do, not something you know you can't win at based on gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I'm outmatched. I'm going to defer to your more wizened judgement here

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Luftmangle View Post
    PvP should be something fun you want to do, not something you know you can't win at based on gear.
    This times one hundred and ninety billion percent!!!!!!

  4. #4
    If all gear would be normalized people would bitch 10xtimes more about pvp not being balanced..

  5. #5
    Mechagnome Honkeymagoo's Avatar
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    The progression of getting gear is too important a part of wow to normalize. I do think the disadvantage is too great when gearing up though. When I start having more free time mid season I'm always pretty undergeared in the pvp department. When I actually give it a shot it's discouraging as fuck b/c I run around getting gibbed by dks that try to mind freeze rogues and mages that spam ice lance without fof on moving targets. Literally the only thing that keeps me from pvping with a great deal of regularity on all my toons is gear, I don't think I'm the only person either. Design that pushes people away from a large part of the game is broken. I really want to pvp, but I'm not gonna bend over for it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Luftmangle View Post
    This reason alone is why I hate PvP in general.

    When joining Battlegrounds/Arena your gear should be normalized. Wins should be based on tactics/skill and not gear. It's simple mathematics why the current system fails.

    PvP should be something fun you want to do, not something you know you can't win at based on gear.
    GW2 already has this and while it's fun for a while it has no legs to stand upon for a very long time when all you can ever hope to get is cosmetic gear.

    There is problem with WoW's system but just taking gear out of the equation is not the solution.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 02:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by roflicerbob View Post
    The progression of getting gear is too important a part of wow to normalize. I do think the disadvantage is too great when gearing up though. When I start having more free time mid season I'm always pretty undergeared in the pvp department. When I actually give it a shot it's discouraging as fuck b/c I run around getting gibbed by dks that try to mind freeze rogues and mages that spam ice lance without fof on moving targets. Literally the only thing that keeps me from pvping with a great deal of regularity on all my toons is gear, I don't think I'm the only person either. Design that pushes people away from a large part of the game is broken. I really want to pvp, but I'm not gonna bend over for it.
    I agree with what you're saying but I also agree with Blizz regarding this dilemma. It's a very fine line between providing catch up mechanics to those who start late in the season to basically negating the effort of those who started at the beginning of the season.

  7. #7
    The best I can come up with is to use some sort of ilvl bracket. Fiddling with stats themselves only compounds the problem of number balancing, and outside of separating PvE and PvP, there's not too much Blizz can do.

    PvP is just broken in general.

  8. #8
    catch up during seasons has always been hard ... but there used to be a somewhat little bit of skill req or just simply outplaying your opponent


    now Class > Gear > Skill
    catch up on gear is hella hard now cuz pve heroic gear is just completely worthless in pvp

    thanks GC ................

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Divineknight13 View Post
    catch up during seasons has always been hard ... but there used to be a somewhat little bit of skill req or just simply outplaying your opponent


    now Class > Gear > Skill
    catch up on gear is hella hard now cuz pve heroic gear is just completely worthless in pvp

    thanks GC ................
    actually, its mostly skill, then gear. Class doesn't matter, a fotm class can help alleviate it somewhat but when you don't know wtf you're doing it shows, and you'll always die no matter what gear you have.

    You know those idiots who buy 2.2k rating or glad? yeah, they suck and will always suck. Gear doesn't mean shit in this game if you don't know what the hell you're doing.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tinslot/simple Oceanic spriest.
    Progression finished in Feb, woo!
    R.I.P Lifegrip

  10. #10
    Mechagnome Ineko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divineknight13 View Post
    catch up during seasons has always been hard ... but there used to be a somewhat little bit of skill req or just simply outplaying your opponent


    now Skill* > Gear* > Class*
    catch up on gear is hella hard now cuz pve heroic gear is just completely worthless in pvp

    thanks GC ................
    *Fixed that for you

    I'm pretty sure if you put rank#1 pvpers with full contenders set into an arena with shitty/okay players with full Malevolent the more skilled players would easily win.

    Whilst this argument is valid with player of equal shitness, the REALLY skilled always come out on top.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ineko View Post
    Whilst this argument is valid with player of equal shitness, the REALLY skilled always come out on top.
    Which is why the game isn't balanced around those that are in the top percentile.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ineko View Post
    *Fixed that for you

    I'm pretty sure if you put rank#1 pvpers with full contenders set into an arena with shitty/okay players with full Malevolent the more skilled players would easily win.

    Whilst this argument is valid with player of equal shitness, the REALLY skilled always come out on top.

    im sorry but in the current state of pvp id like you to put any rank 1 player infront of me and give me a toon with full mael and a t2 weapon and watch me eat there face then tell me that skill > gear

    ive given rank 1 players a run for there money and ive never had t2 or been over 2200+ rating ... and even beaten glads and some of my servers rank 1s ... ive NEVER had even close to bis or a t2 weapon in my time of wow ... but this is in the past... when your statement would be correct but arena is ZOMG 1 button macro all your cds and score a kill now ...

    its very simple if the burst is more then your total hp then what does skill help you with?
    Last edited by Divineknight13; 2013-01-03 at 09:11 AM. Reason: fixing typos

  13. #13
    Why do people still insist on skill > gear/class? You are living in the f past.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ineko View Post
    *Fixed that for you

    I'm pretty sure if you put rank#1 pvpers with full contenders set into an arena with shitty/okay players with full Malevolent the more skilled players would easily win.

    Whilst this argument is valid with player of equal shitness, the REALLY skilled always come out on top.
    I've watched reckful do 2's and 3's on his horribly geared fresh 90 rogue and its not true his skill < their gear they just destroy him.

  15. #15
    Because sometimes I like to go with my friends into WSG for lulz all in BiS elite gear and do 200k cy@ bolts on randoms.

    Gear is fine, go grind it.

  16. #16
    As a 550k health destro/aff lock, I wholeheartedly disagree.

  17. #17
    Shaman in full gear here, I disagree with your notion of it not being fun. It IS fun to be able to run circles around players who's damage I can outheal with riptide.

  18. #18
    Make an option to que with preset gear.
    Should not be to hard

    " A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities "

  19. #19
    The Patient Tierst's Avatar
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    Why can it not be that they are enjoying it because they have worked so hard for their gear that they are able to actually use it. They feel that their hard work is rewarding because of that. The same as people who work to grind pve gear get to do the harder raids.

  20. #20
    To catch up in a season is no problem at all nowdays.

    Easy to grab some decent rating to get an increased cap to gain gear fast enough.

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