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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Can you elaborate?
    just the usual, get addon at midnight , meet up in teamspeak and start playing together through the content , doing it with childhood friends who you rarely see since everyone moved apart as we got older makes it much more interesting. Did this every addon, it's really nice since we rarely come together in rl anymore.

    that aside i agree on your list, past challenge modes i only visited lfr once for each raid to see what they created and did some arena&rbg before quitting after two weeks no time to play which basically meant i would be a permanent handicap for the next months thanks to gear upgrade system. Funny thing is i still got a sub running active and didnt log in for more than a month (forgot to unsub in time)
    Last edited by bt4; 2013-01-18 at 06:39 PM.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    just the usual, get addon at midnight , meet up in teamspeak and start playing together through the content , doing it with childhood friends who you rarely see since everyone moved apart as we got older makes it much more interesting. Did this every addon, it's really nice since we rarely come together in rl anymore.

    that aside i agree on your list, past challenge modes i only visited lfr once for each raid to see what they created and did some arena&rbg before quitting after two weeks no time to play which basically meant i would be a permanent handicap for the next months thanks to gear upgrade system. Funny thing is i still got a sub running active and didnt log in for more than a month (forgot to unsub in time)
    In my case, as said completed all challenge modes on gold. Raiding guild fell apart 10 days after my sub refreshed (as in that was the nail of the coffin, the whole previous week I did not play due to personal health reasons). I have a 3 month subscription. 36 EUR down the drain. Unsubbing is still on my to-do list.

    I'm looking for other games which don't include "the grind". Which are casual friendly. The added advantage being you can play on any time you like, barring requirement of your friends being online. Now, my RL friends don't come further than chess, word games, and a few Facebook crap (also grindy), so I can forget about that. But the friends I have in WoW generally stick with WoW or quit gaming altogether. So the past month I have literally only logged in for social reasons, and twice joined a raid because of lack of attendance or previous expertise on the fight.

    I tried various single player games: Dishonored, Skyrim, AC3, to name a few. Bought them all. I miss the interaction like MMORPG have. GW2 remains, but I'm waiting till my best WoW friend comes back from real-life so we can play together.

    Concerning WoW, I guess its safe to unsub till 5.2, sub for a month to try out the new stuff in LFR, and then unsub again till 5.4 (since 5.3 is a minor patch) doing the same. Or until new challenge mode content comes out. Because the PvP grind and PvE grind will not be removed.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    In my case, as said completed all challenge modes on gold. Raiding guild fell apart 10 days after my sub refreshed (as in that was the nail of the coffin, the whole previous week I did not play due to personal health reasons). I have a 3 month subscription. 36 EUR down the drain. Unsubbing is still on my to-do list.

    I'm looking for other games which don't include "the grind". Which are casual friendly. The added advantage being you can play on any time you like, barring requirement of your friends being online. Now, my RL friends don't come further than chess, word games, and a few Facebook crap (also grindy), so I can forget about that. But the friends I have in WoW generally stick with WoW or quit gaming altogether. So the past month I have literally only logged in for social reasons, and twice joined a raid because of lack of attendance or previous expertise on the fight.

    I tried various single player games: Dishonored, Skyrim, AC3, to name a few. Bought them all. I miss the interaction like MMORPG have. GW2 remains, but I'm waiting till my best WoW friend comes back from real-life so we can play together.

    Concerning WoW, I guess its safe to unsub till 5.2, sub for a month to try out the new stuff in LFR, and then unsub again till 5.4 (since 5.3 is a minor patch) doing the same. Or until new challenge mode content comes out. Because the PvP grind and PvE grind will not be removed.
    It sounds like MMO's are just not for you. Grinding is a part of MMO's that makes them MMO's. Blizzard has already given people everything they wanted. Race changes, sex changes, fast/easy leveling, zero penalties, cheap mounts, too many class/race combinations, everything. It sounds like you just want to socialize in a virtual environment, and are too lazy to do any work. Try second life, that would suit you more. And why would you want your friend to "come back from real life." Let them do their thing and move on.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Neemzor View Post
    [...] Grinding is a part of MMO's that makes them MMO's.
    No, it is not. Nowhere on the entire Wikipedia page will you once even read the word grind.

    Grinds are part of some RPG games because the developers want the player to rehash content. For one, because it is too expensive for them to develop new content (or so, they claim). Second, it fits in very well with a subscription model, and also with a model allowing bad players to gain an advantage by working for it. I refuse to play against such bad players, and refuse to grind to gain an edge over the beginner. I do not want to first "grind my ass off" so I am on equal ground with those who do, either. There are simply better games in the world which you start up and you are immediately competitive (barring elements such as being a newbie, skill, etc) instead of forcing me to waste time.

    Blizzard has already given people everything they wanted. Race changes, sex changes, fast/easy leveling, zero penalties, cheap mounts, too many class/race combinations, everything. It sounds like you just want to socialize in a virtual environment
    Yet, they did not remove the grinds. Why not allow people to play the content only once instead?

    and are too lazy to do any work.
    I work at my part-time job; not in a game.

    On top of that I am totally fine "having to research my class", "improving my gameplay to achieve a higher skill level", and "playing unique content". If you call that work, and indeed they are required to stay competitive. They are however not grinds and rehash of content.

    Try second life, that would suit you more.
    I played predecessors of Second Life in the 90s. Second Life pretty much proves MMOs do not necessarily contain grinds (some RPGs contain it). Same for GW2 in its original form. I also played PnP RPG, MUDs, and rogue RPG. One of my favorite games to this day is still Nethack and its variants. My preferred type of game includes ways to engage in combat, but equally also allows to do peaceful tasks. Many hearts in GW2 contain this mechanism, the game Dishonored also follows this very mantra (stealth vs loud and lot in between), as well as Splinter Cell series till some degree. None of these games contain grinds.

    Someone claimed CoD series have unequal play field. The default class setups are always quite strong, and the leveling experience unlocks more and more. Once you're max level you can decide to go for prestige which gives very small advantage. Either way, I haven't played CoD after MW since they didn't allow mods and dedicated servers anymore.

    And why would you want your friend to "come back from real life." Let them do their thing and move on.
    He is currently busy with real-life related business. We were going to level up a character together in GW2. My main is only level ~50. That's how casual I play.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  5. #285
    PVP in MMOS is a joke because it's gear dependent. I can't believe the entire Blizzard team has no idea what motivates PVP players : it's not owning some ungeared nubs!

    but they seem to think it is because god forbid a pvp player does not get a new gear piece every week, they might UNSUB?? but dont pvp players love getting new shiny gear like raiders???? me no understand???

    hey GC if you kept your guns in Counterstrike after a round ended, do you think it would improve the game? do you think it would make more people play DOTA if their chars became permanently leveled after a game? what if in SC2 you kept your base in between ladder games??


    "but players need a shiny carrot to pvp!!??" no they dont.

    moronic.
    Last edited by Blutelf; 2013-01-19 at 08:47 AM.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakesong View Post
    The problem is, is gear is normalized, people wouldn't have to grind for it. If people don't have to grind and don't feel rewarded for the items they get, they won't find a reason to join BGs and Arenas.
    Sadly WoW is based around the constant need to get rewards, rather than a "fun experience".
    Rewards can be pets. Mounts. Tabards. Prestige. Titles. Vanity items. Transmog gear. And more.

    Does it have to be a set of gear?

    EJL

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Yet, they did not remove the grinds. Why not allow people to play the content only once instead?
    Because Blizzard won't even discuss its monopoly over the content.

    Check Eve Online instead. That game is about a systems rather than content. What Eve Online delivers are
    1. Gameplay systems (for fighting, customizing vessels, material extraction and production lines)
    2. Social systems (for people to run their organizations, engage in economical activities, and interact)
    3. A space where people can use these systems (the vast universe, where 2 people playing the same may never cross paths due to vast distances)

    It is the players who run the game. Imagine WoW with player-run Horde and Alliance (and several other factions).

    If Blizzard keeps the monopoly on creating content (which translates to gear, raids and quests in Blizzard's mind) it is inevitable for players to login every single day and not rerun the same content at some point. It is just impossible to create high quality curated experience at a higher pace than it is consumed.

    Children don't go to Disneyland every single day, but they want to play with their friends at a playground virtually every single day.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Akaviri View Post
    Haha, no, I know about not beating WoW! ^^ c: I meant, defeating another playing, not the game itself, by any means!

    And, I understand, though.... I don't really agree with 'all-equal-gearing', I think it makes the game more interesting to try and work harder to get better gear and just become a better player altogether. I was just speaking for those who are judged by their gear, like, have a label put on them, like they're not a good player, y'know? Like, it isn't all about PvPing.
    The problem is better gear acts like a crutch. Worse, it can and does ensure that skill is often irrelevant. The worse player can win simply because he started playing earlier.

    The PvP gear grind has one simple benefit....it give spure PvPers a reason to keep logging in. The downside is that it is really bad for PvP because it turns PvP play into Gear vs Gear. And because of that, it hobbles and restricts what Blizzard can do to bring PvP into the mainstream of the actual gameplay design.

    Ultimately, if you want PvP to be an actual integral part of the game, it needs to be balanced, it needs to be fair, and it can't rely on gear. The gear grind works in PvE. But it doesn't work as far for PvP because it embodies the very inequalities that bedevil PvP game balance.

    EJL

  9. #289
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    No, it is not. Nowhere on the entire Wikipedia page will you once even read the word grind.

    Grinds are part of some RPG games because the developers want the player to rehash content. For one, because it is too expensive for them to develop new content (or so, they claim). Second, it fits in very well with a subscription model, and also with a model allowing bad players to gain an advantage by working for it. I refuse to play against such bad players, and refuse to grind to gain an edge over the beginner. I do not want to first "grind my ass off" so I am on equal ground with those who do, either. There are simply better games in the world which you start up and you are immediately competitive (barring elements such as being a newbie, skill, etc) instead of forcing me to waste time.
    This is in the article you provided. They would not use the word grind, as its used as a slang term in video games. You cannot actually grind anything in terms of digital entertainment.

    There are a number of factors shared by most MMOGs that make them different from other types of games. MMOGs create a persistent universe where the game milieu continues regardless of interaction. Since these games emphasize multiplayer gameplay, many have only basic single-player aspects and the artificial intelligence on the server is primarily designed to support group play. As a result, players cannot "finish" MMOGs in the typical sense of single-player games.
    This is copy and pasted from that page. I agree, some of you guys sound like you just enjoy the social aspect of this game and want the rest to change to suit your needs. I find this to be unfair, because thats the reason I fell in love with WoW. Its grindy. But whiners come and whine and want everything handed to them.

    In nearly all MMORPGs, the development of the player's character is a primary goal. Nearly all MMORPGs feature a character progression system in which players earn experience points for their actions and use those points to reach character "levels", which makes them better at whatever they do.[7] Traditionally, combat with monsters and completing quests for NPCs, either alone or in groups, are the primary ways to earn experience points. The accumulation of wealth (including combat-useful items) is also a way to progress in many MMORPGs, and again, this is traditionally best accomplished via combat. The cycle produced by these conditions, combat leading to new items allowing for more combat with no change in gameplay, is sometimes pejoratively referred to as the level treadmill, or "grinding".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive...e-playing_game

    Yes. This quote from that wiki page clearly states that grinding for experience and gear is part of MMO-RPG's. I really think people should consider playing another game if they truly hate grinding and progressing via gear.

    Often, the widened range of equipment available at the maximum level will have increased aesthetic value to distinguish high ranking players in game. Colloquially known as endgame gear, this set of empowered weapons and armor adds a competitive edge to both scripted boss encounters as well as player vs. player combat. Player motivation to outperform others is fueled by acquiring such items and is a significant determining factor in their success or failure in combat related situations.
    Again from that wiki. It just sounds like some of you guys don't really care to have to deal with many parts of the game that makes it an MMO-RPG. I love it that people are interested in WoW. I love meeting new people. But I hate the part where everyone wants to change the game to suit themselves, instead of adapt or play a different game.

    I generally don't like racing games. They normally offer mediocre-poor stories, little to no real progression, and the depth of the whole game is summed up as "go fast." This doesn't mean I don't enjoy them from time to time, but one thing I don't do is petition those publishers to warp their games into something I might enjoy more, by adding a progression system or what have you, JUST BECAUSE I PAY THEM MONEY.

    To me this is like dating someone, and trying to change every aspect of that person. People don't like that. One of my exes liked my attitude and body, but wanted me to drastically change my taste in music from rock to pop, and watched me to dress at shops like aeropostle, instead of band shirts/dress shirts. Do you understand why this is wrong?
    Last edited by Lemonpartyfan; 2013-01-19 at 03:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  10. #290
    I've been thinking about this one for a while now and I think I've come up with at least a theory. The people that believe ganking is pvp are the ones that want to keep things the way they are - in an essence it makes even same level pvp feel like ganking because people get 1-shot due to gear disparities and really have no chance at winning, and the gankers want to keep it this way. The people that actually like the compition aspect of pvp have no problem with this - because hell this will bring in new fresh blood compition (if you are good as you think you are - they still will not have a chance).

    My conclusion: there are a lot of gankers that play wow that are unhappy about this change.

    Make the rewards cosmetic so everyone knows who the real high rated players are just by looking at their extra-special gear or that ridiculously cool mount. But do not punish newer pvpers by putting them into a gankfest - that is called pvp.
    Last edited by slime; 2013-01-19 at 04:18 PM.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    This is in the article you provided. They would not use the word grind, as its used as a slang term in video games. You cannot actually grind anything in terms of digital entertainment.
    They could explain the term. But the person I replied to specifically said MMOs were about all about grinding. First of all, he used the incorrect terminology since MMOs aren't about grinding they're about a 24/7 online multiplayer world (they're not even necessarily MMORPGs either).

    MMOGs create a persistent universe where the game milieu continues regardless of interaction
    Denotes that.

    Second, all about denotes the entire game is made around the game. WoW is indeed mostly build around grinding, but not all MMOs are! To speak in your racing game terms only the shallow ones are

    I agree, some of you guys sound like you just enjoy the social aspect of this game and want the rest to change to suit your needs. I find this to be unfair, because thats the reason I fell in love with WoW. Its grindy. But whiners come and whine and want everything handed to them.
    I find it unfortunate you don't understand the psychology behind grinding. Perhaps I'll be able to explain it to you further down the line.

    Now that we covered MMOs lets talk about RPGs. RPGs were never necessarily about grinding either (which again, leaves room for grinding being an essential part of an RPG but the ones I mentioned didn't contain it which proves without a shed of a doubt grind isn't a necessary component of the RPG genre). None of the examples I gave are. But you know what all RPGs have in common? They don't have PvP. Grinding gear in PvP game for linear progression is rare. "The grind" is optional in games, including in MMORPG. If you compare WoW to say CoD then the progression in CoD multiplayer is leveling from XP as well as several other metagames. But the progression path ("grind") isn't linear. Unlike WoW, you have a very good chance to kill enemies with the default builds provided you are skilled in FPS.

    Now, we are to believe that suddenly the combination of MMO and RPG requires grinds as if some kind of macabre combination of the two suddenly invented the anti christ. This is patently false. To understand this we must first understand the term grind is relative, and that WoW is the creme de la creme of grinding. Second, we must look what an RPG is at its core about: developing the character with storyline, leveling/experience (which unlocks the former), and gear (which unlocks the former). In PvP WoW, unlike in RPGs, more gear doesn't unlock content. Now, there are 3 ways to end an RPG: 1) it becomes more and more difficult (nearly impossible?) the more you reach the end level. Hello Nethack. 2) you accept the game ends at end game and call the game. Original GW2. 3) you make either the leveling or the "end-game" (= max level) incredibly grindy (time spend on tedious). WoW what a revelation.

    There is no reason why, when you combine MMO and RPG together, we suddenly get a game where the developers of the game were like "hey lets make it so the players must spend an ample amount of time in the game to get in-game rewards which make them stronger compared to others who spend less time." where again this grind refers to the insane amounts of time a game like WoW costs. Which brings us to...

    Yes. This quote from that wiki page clearly states that grinding for experience and gear is part of MMO-RPG's. I really think people should consider playing another game if they truly hate grinding and progressing via gear.
    Grinding is a relative term. I don't find leveling a character and exploring its possibilities, playing the storyline grindy. I do find playing the same flippin' daily quest for 2 weeks every day grindy, or doing the same raid over and over and over again for 6 months grindy. That is why I said above, that grind is a relative term. There's going to be a point where you're departing the grind game, when you leave grind cult so to say.

    I generally don't like racing games. They normally offer mediocre-poor stories, little to no real progression, and the depth of the whole game is summed up as "go fast."
    Sorry, racing games are not about "going fast" those are incredibly shallow racing games. Wacky Wheels and Slicks aren't about going fast. Carmagaddeon is about going fast but provides different means to win. GTA, which includes character development and story line, isn't about going fast (granted it sometimes is but we're talking about the sole purpose of the game). The type of shooter where all what matters is your K:D ratio is incredibly shallow as well and something you'll get tired of quickly.

    [...] JUST BECAUSE I PAY THEM MONEY.
    You don't understand how the game works at all (that's figural in case you didn't get that). Let it be crystal clear that, those who understand how WoW's business model and popularity work and still like the game as much as before they understood I do admire. But it appears to me a plethora of people have no clue or understanding about how and why the sun if shinin'.

    With the subscription-based MMORPG it is essentially pay to work to win. If you're involved in grinds (pet battles, PvP end-game, PvE raiding) the reason you're paying for your sub to be allowed to grind, to play the very same content over and over again. So, where you're going to pay two times 36 EUR or USD to play WoW which boils down to 72 for half a year, I'm going to pay once 13 EUR and then save myself 5 times that amount. Then I'll have one month to play the new content which doesn't involve grinds such as challenge modes, a dungeon, a daily quest, a LFR, and a specific queue BG to check out the new BGs. Perhaps if I wait enough I can get even a SoR instead of pay the 13 EUR.

    The core of the problem here, as I said, is the subscription. To keep players playing, micro transactions and DLC/expansions function just fine as an optional investment or way to unlock content. But by forcing a subscription you want to keep your players around and therefore force them to play content over and over again. In GW2, if I don't play for a month, they don't lose anything and neither do I. In WoW, if I don't play for a month I am falling behind in the progression path. Instead, we should simply pay per content patch which boils down to DLC/expansions.

    Plus, whether you pay Blizz or not, you have no say in WoW development. Your biggest say is, as with any product: vote with your wallet. When you unsub, you can let them know why. There's no way you can ever have any say in anything by buying it except if you endorse the product by doing so, or with shares of public traded companies provided you get a large enough share to become relevant. But we can get a say by showing the playerbase what the flaws are, and that there's better available.

    To me this is like dating someone, and trying to change every aspect of that person. People don't like that. One of my exes liked my attitude and body, but wanted me to drastically change my taste in music from rock to pop, and watched me to dress at shops like aeropostle, instead of band shirts/dress shirts. Do you understand why this is wrong?
    I find your example quite childish, I'm not sure the following counts for teens, but in the case of dressing, your significant other is more often than not right about the way you dress when he or she provides you feedback. Especially more so if you're heterosexual and male, because that denotes your significant other is member of the female genre who (generally) have a far better nose for style and eye for details than you as male counterpart do. Conversely, you don't ask her about what new phone you should buy, because that is likely not her field of expertise.

    An integral part of any relation (including a friendship and relationship) is mutual gains. An example is the growing of character. If your significant other adds nothing of value in the way you stand in life it is time to ditch that person and move on. If your significant other isn't open to mutual benefit from you even though you know you're an expert and you know you are right then it is time to leave the sinking ship as the previous rats did.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  12. #292
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=lolalola;19912940]
    They could explain the term. But the person I replied to specifically said MMOs were about all about grinding. First of all, he used the incorrect terminology since MMOs aren't about grinding they're about a 24/7 online multiplayer world (they're not even necessarily MMORPGs either

    I find it unfortunate you don't understand the psychology behind grinding. Perhaps I'll be able to explain it to you further down the line.

    Now that we covered MMOs lets talk about RPGs. RPGs were never necessarily about grinding either (which again, leaves room for grinding being an essential part of an RPG but the ones I mentioned didn't contain it which proves without a shed of a doubt grind isn't a necessary component of the RPG genre). None of the examples I gave are. But you know what all RPGs have in common? They don't have PvP. Grinding gear in PvP game for linear progression is rare. "The grind" is optional in games, including in MMORPG. If you compare WoW to say CoD then the progression in CoD multiplayer is leveling from XP as well as several other metagames. But the progression path ("grind") isn't linear. Unlike WoW, you have a very good chance to kill enemies with the default builds provided you are skilled in FPS.

    Now, we are to believe that suddenly the combination of MMO and RPG requires grinds as if some kind of macabre combination of the two suddenly invented the anti christ. This is patently false. To understand this we must first understand the term grind is relative, and that WoW is the creme de la creme of grinding. Second, we must look what an RPG is at its core about: developing the character with storyline, leveling/experience (which unlocks the former), and gear (which unlocks the former). In PvP WoW, unlike in RPGs, more gear doesn't unlock content. Now, there are 3 ways to end an RPG: 1) it becomes more and more difficult (nearly impossible?) the more you reach the end level. Hello Nethack. 2) you accept the game ends at end game and call the game. Original GW2. 3) you make either the leveling or the "end-game" (= max level) incredibly grindy (time spend on tedious). WoW what a revelation.

    Here is what you don't see to understand. RPGS are about character progression. They are about gear, min/maxing, stats and whatnot. MMO's involve making a world that is always there, that you don't actually "beat" until new content comes out. So when you get MMORPGS, the point of the game is to get gear, min/max and get stats, MIXED with a style that involves a game that is always alive, but you never truly beat until its old content. Thats what this game is about. If you don;t like it, sorry, but don't play it. You raid Naxx over and over again so you can eventually kill the Lich King. Thats what this game has been, and is about.


    Grinding is a relative term. I don't find leveling a character and exploring its possibilities, playing the storyline grindy. I do find playing the same flippin' daily quest for 2 weeks every day grindy, or doing the same raid over and over and over again for 6 months grindy. That is why I said above, that grind is a relative term. There's going to be a point where you're departing the grind game, when you leave grind cult so to say.
    Grinding is, and has been part of this game since its launch. If you don't want to grind dailies, don't. You don't need the gear or rep, as you get get close to the same gear in LFR/heroics etc. Grind is an essential part of MMORPG as I have stated to you, and as mentioned on the MMO and MMORPG wiki pages. They are known for this, if you don;t like it, MMORPG might not be for you.

    Sorry, racing games are not about "going fast" those are incredibly shallow racing games. Wacky Wheels and Slicks aren't about going fast. Carmagaddeon is about going fast but provides different means to win. GTA, which includes character development and story line, isn't about going fast (granted it sometimes is but we're talking about the sole purpose of the game). The type of shooter where all what matters is your K:D ratio is incredibly shallow as well and something you'll get tired of quickly.
    GTA isn't even a racing game. Carmagaeddeon is very shallow as well. I alos don't know if you knew it, but Shooters do in fact happen to be one of the more popular genres out there. I think that last I saw, the three games with the most played hours were LOL, WOW, and COD.

    The core of the problem here, as I said, is the subscription. To keep players playing, micro transactions and DLC/expansions function just fine as an optional investment or way to unlock content. But by forcing a subscription you want to keep your players around and therefore force them to play content over and over again. In GW2, if I don't play for a month, they don't lose anything and neither do I. In WoW, if I don't play for a month I am falling behind in the progression path. Instead, we should simply pay per content patch which boils down to DLC/expansions.
    I don't think you can make a case against subs, especially not when talking about WoW. I'm also very sure if you don;t play, you will fall behind in WoW, GW2, or any other MMO-RPG.

    I find your example quite childish, I'm not sure the following counts for teens, but in the case of dressing, your significant other is more often than not right about the way you dress when he or she provides you feedback. Especially more so if you're heterosexual and male, because that denotes your significant other is member of the female genre who (generally) have a far better nose for style and eye for details than you as male counterpart do. Conversely, you don't ask her about what new phone you should buy, because that is likely not her field of expertise.
    How is this childish? How would my significant other be correct about what clothes I like and feel comfortable wearing? Why should having a nose for popular style give someone the right to try to change what clothes I like wearing? You missed the whole point of even bring this example up. The point is, if that person finds my current clothes so ugly, she should instead date someone with a sense of fashion that suits her wants. I would not start dating a fashionista and demand she be as good at video games as me. Thats ridiculous. Just like human adults aren't clay for you to mold into whatever you want, neither should be video games. Again, my point being, find the game for you, instead of trying to change every little thing about current games you don't like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Here is what you don't see to understand. RPGS are about character progression. They are about gear, min/maxing, stats and whatnot. MMO's involve making a world that is always there, that you don't actually "beat" until new content comes out. So when you get MMORPGS, the point of the game is to get gear, min/max and get stats, MIXED with a style that involves a game that is always alive, but you never truly beat until its old content. Thats what this game is about. If you don;t like it, sorry, but don't play it. You raid Naxx over and over again so you can eventually kill the Lich King. Thats what this game has been, and is about.
    That really depends per MMORPG. Not every MMORPG contains a grind which people play competitively. I explained you 3 ways MMORPG end; how their progression flows. I also explained you how PvP and grind is rather rare; usually you'll find a ladder system.

    Grinding is, and has been part of this game since its launch. If you don't want to grind dailies, don't. You don't need the gear or rep, as you get get close to the same gear in LFR/heroics etc. Grind is an essential part of MMORPG as I have stated to you, and as mentioned on the MMO and MMORPG wiki pages. They are known for this, if you don;t like it, MMORPG might not be for you.
    One, it isn't on the MMO wiki page. Two, it is on the MMORPG wiki page, and yet it isn't part of many RPGs. It isn't an integral part of every MMORPG either.

    but Shooters do in fact happen to be one of the more popular genres out there.
    Yeah, and what is the relevance of that statement?

    I don't think you can make a case against subs, especially not when talking about WoW. I'm also very sure if you don;t play, you will fall behind in WoW, GW2, or any other MMO-RPG.
    How do I fall behind in GW2? The game has no gear grinds in PvP, nor in the leveling experience. By rolling a different race you get a complete new leveling experience. The game itself has a linear amount of leveling time of approx 80 * 1,5 hr which is 120 hour per profession (= class)/race. The biggest grind in GW2 is legendaries, and yes they are grinds, but they're only marginally better than exotic. Now, compare that with DTR, which was very much BiS pre-nerf and even post-nerf still BiS and only the stuff from the last boss coming remotely near it (for spirit OH users).

    As for subs, I explained countless of times how the subscription model is tied to massive grinds.

    How is this childish?
    Because something silly like a band t-shirt isn't something people should bicker about in a relationship. It is just something you accept from each other, but if its such a big deal you could just let her buy them for you. If your music taste difference is sooo important to you why were you together in the first place?

    How would my significant other be correct about what clothes I like and feel comfortable wearing?
    Because women know both what looks good on you, as well as how they want to see you. Its a matter of trust. You could've just shrugged it off, and /care about whatever band t-shirt you wear. I mean you don't see it. She does. You can by default assume she doesn't wanna make you look like a clown.

    The point is, if that person finds my current clothes so ugly, she should instead date someone with a sense of fashion that suits her wants. I would not start dating a fashionista and demand she be as good at video games as me. Thats ridiculous. Just like human adults aren't clay for you to mold into whatever you want, neither should be video games. Again, my point being, find the game for you, instead of trying to change every little thing about current games you don't like.
    I think that's partly what I'm doing, but I've also played every game in the Warcraft franchise before, and loved them all. If you like a product a lot it makes sense you want to see it improving, even if involves some major changes. Plus, Blizzard are developing a new MMO. And also, since grind is a relative term, and since WoW used to be way more grindy, there's hope.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  14. #294
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    That really depends per MMORPG. Not every MMORPG contains a grind which people play competitively. I explained you 3 ways MMORPG end; how their progression flows. I also explained you how PvP and grind is rather rare; usually you'll find a ladder system.

    One, it isn't on the MMO wiki page. Two, it is on the MMORPG wiki page, and yet it isn't part of many RPGs. It isn't an integral part of every MMORPG either.

    How do I fall behind in GW2? The game has no gear grinds in PvP, nor in the leveling experience. By rolling a different race you get a complete new leveling experience. The game itself has a linear amount of leveling time of approx 80 * 1,5 hr which is 120 hour per profession (= class)/race. The biggest grind in GW2 is legendaries, and yes they are grinds, but they're only marginally better than exotic. Now, compare that with DTR, which was very much BiS pre-nerf and even post-nerf still BiS and only the stuff from the last boss coming remotely near it (for spirit OH users).

    As for subs, I explained countless of times how the subscription model is tied to massive grinds.

    Because something silly like a band t-shirt isn't something people should bicker about in a relationship. It is just something you accept from each other, but if its such a big deal you could just let her buy them for you. If your music taste difference is sooo important to you why were you together in the first place?

    Because women know both what looks good on you, as well as how they want to see you. Its a matter of trust. You could've just shrugged it off, and /care about whatever band t-shirt you wear. I mean you don't see it. She does. You can by default assume she doesn't wanna make you look like a clown.

    I think that's partly what I'm doing, but I've also played every game in the Warcraft franchise before, and loved them all. If you like a product a lot it makes sense you want to see it improving, even if involves some major changes. Plus, Blizzard are developing a new MMO. And also, since grind is a relative term, and since WoW used to be way more grindy, there's hope.
    If you don;t like the subscription model, don;t play games with subs. Simple as that.

    "Not every" Still means MOST, MANY, and "this is how many were from their roots."

    If you don't spend time in a game, you will fall behind other people. That is just a simple truth.

    I don't care if women " know whats better for you" .. thats a ridiculous and sexist statement. According to whom? Thats only if I care what cosmo magazine thinks about fashion. Someone forcing you to change your whole life for them is wrong. Period. Stop trying to justify it.

    Again, you seem to like playing the game, but don;t like many important parts of the game, and mostly the social aspect of it. Just because you like something about GW2 better, does not mean you should try to change wow to that effect. If GW2 is so great, I suggest you play that instead of changing WoW drastically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  15. #295
    Sides most women want you to dress up like a pussy.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Again, you seem to like playing the game, but don;t like many important parts of the game, and mostly the social aspect of it. Just because you like something about GW2 better, does not mean you should try to change wow to that effect. If GW2 is so great, I suggest you play that instead of changing WoW drastically.
    It's not so much a question of liking something in GW2 so much as trying to make WoW better.

    There has always been problems with PvP in WoW, various imbalances. And, as a result, PvP has often...by necessity....played second fiddle. It has, in many ways, been ignored.

    The ideal solution is one Blizzard has, to date, rejected. Separating out PvP and PvE. This CAN largely be achieved today. In fact, Blizzard has used many of the systems involved for years so it does appear to be technically feasible. And, as part of that process, the issue of gear would have to be looked at and - being blunt - largely rendered a non-issue.

    How would Blizzard do this? Resilience to offer 100% DR, and abilities which deal dedicated damage to players and not MoBS via the PvP Power system, with damage being measured as a %age total of the targets health.

    This would drastically improve the state of PvP within the actual game world. There would be no need for separate PvP armour - except as transmog rewards. Ganking and griefing would lose much of its appeal. Blizzard would be better placed to add PvP mechanics into the game world knowing the system was relatively fair and being able to design around a fixed encounter strength. The imbalances which bedevil PvP would be reduced, albeit not eliminated. PvE play could be largely kept separate from PvP as well and it'd be much simpler to balance both without worry about how the affect each other. And more.

    All of which would, IMO, be an improvement over the current system which is designed largely to reward grinding and farming more than actual skilled play.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-22 at 04:31 AM.

  17. #297
    They won't ever normalize gear because mediocre players need small people to beat on to feel successful. The fact that GW2 didn't take with the masses is proof enough - people as a majority aren't looking for a challenge in PvP anymore.

  18. #298
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prag View Post
    They won't ever normalize gear because mediocre players need small people to beat on to feel successful. The fact that GW2 didn't take with the masses is proof enough - people as a majority aren't looking for a challenge in PvP anymore.
    I don't really think GW2 not taking to the masses means much of anything, except maybe its not as great as you state. You may enjoy it enough, but apparently plenty of GREAT/MEDIOCRE/BAD players are fine with gear progressions, because again, if normalized gear was so great, they would likely switch to that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 11:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    It's not so much a question of liking something in GW2 so much as trying to make WoW better.

    There has always been problems with PvP in WoW, various imbalances. And, as a result, PvP has often...by necessity....played second fiddle. It has, in many ways, been ignored.

    The ideal solution is one Blizzard has, to date, rejected. Separating out PvP and PvE. This CAN largely be achieved today. In fact, Blizzard has used many of the systems involved for years so it does appear to be technically feasible. And, as part of that process, the issue of gear would have to be looked at and - being blunt - largely rendered a non-issue.

    How would Blizzard do this? Resilience to offer 100% DR, and abilities which deal dedicated damage to players and not MoBS via the PvP Power system, with damage being measured as a %age total of the targets health.

    This would drastically improve the state of PvP within the actual game world. There would be no need for separate PvP armour - except as transmog rewards. Ganking and griefing would lose much of its appeal. Blizzard would be better placed to add PvP mechanics into the game world knowing the system was relatively fair and being able to design around a fixed encounter strength. The imbalances which bedevil PvP would be reduced, albeit not eliminated. PvE play could be largely kept separate from PvP as well. And more.

    All of which would, IMO, be an improvement over the current system which is designed largely to reward grinding and farming more than actual skilled play.

    EJL
    I do not agree. I also still don't understand. If GW2 iss so superior, why aren't people flocking to a cheaper, more superior option? I really hope they don't change it. WoW would lose much of its identity that way. Homogenization is almost always a bad idea. Leave that GW2 system to possibly flourish or fail by itself. If you prefer that system, then by all means play it! I prefer this one, which is why I chose, and continue to play WoW.

    I also don't think Blizzard WANTS to get rid of ganking at all. I also doubt they would do any type of HUGE change mid expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    I do not agree. I also still don't understand. If GW2 iss so superior, why aren't people flocking to a cheaper, more superior option?
    Almsot every MMO you care to name has good ideas and neat concepts. That doesn't necessarily mean the game, as a whole, is better than WoW.

    In GW2, you have a situation where PvP ignores gear and, as a result, there is no gear grind, there is no barrier to entry, everyone can take part at a moments notice and so on.

    I prefer this one, which is why I chose, and continue to play WoW.
    The one "advantage" the current system offers is the ability to gank. Your gear will keep rough parity with others at a similar level; only the speed with which you demolish lowbies and late starters is affected, and even then, you are limited by a GCD.

    The system does not reward skill or quick thinking or team coordination. In many ways, it down plays such aspects unless and until your teams gear is of rough parity with your opponents. But then, we're at the stage where gear is essentially just for looks.

    I also doubt they would do any type of HUGE change mid expansion.
    I'm not certain it would be a huge change. Especially since they have effectively already decided to add a very similar system with the change to lower level BG brackets for 5.2. Not as radical, but very similar.

    And, when you get down to it, the change players would see and experience is...not a lot. They'd last longer against "superior" opponents and they'd see bigger yellow numbers flash up on screen. Their rotation wouldn't necessarily change. Their gaming experience wouldn't necessarily change. Its a big change to how things work behind the scenes....but players don't live behind the scenes.

    Opening up PvP to more players? Making the game system more balanced? Giving the designers the freedom to integrate more PvP hubs and mechanics into the gameworld? I don't see these as bad.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-22 at 04:50 AM.

  20. #300
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Talen;19935530]
    Almsot every MMO you care to name has good ideas and neat concepts. That doesn't necessarily mean the game, as a whole, is better than WoW.

    In GW2, you have a situation where PvP ignores gear and, as a result, there is no gear grind, there is no barrier to entry, everyone can take part at a moments notice and so on.
    That sounds good on paper, but noobs will still get stomped. I don;t think the ladder ranking swill change that drastically. Especially if they don't fix cheating and win trading first.

    What I really meant was "if this system is so deplorable, and GW2's is so praiseworthy, why are you wasting your time pvping in WoW?"



    The one "advantage" the current system offers is the ability to gank. Your gear will keep rough parity with others at a similar level; only the speed with which you demolish lowbies and late starters is affected, and even then, you are limited by a GCD.

    The system does not reward skill or quick thinking or team coordination. In many ways, it down plays such aspects unless and until your teams gear is of rough parity with your opponents. But then, we're at the stage where gear is essentially just for looks.
    I don't really agree. Unless you cheated your way to the top very early, I doubt lots of bads will be in such grossly high gear that you. I have been raped by warriors with great gear while at low ratings, but I saw very few, I guess helping a friend get up higher. I also think it does reward skill. Team comps are very important.

    Not all pvp games do offer progression, but many do. People use CoD as an example, but to be honest, you do have to grind and earn XP for those games. Besides GW2, fighting games are one of the only examples I can think of with no gear progression. I'm sure there are more, but I draw a blank.


    I'm not certain it would be a huge change. Especially since they have effectively already decided to add a very similar system with the change to lower level BG brackets for 5.2. Not as radical, but very similar.

    And, when you get down to it, the change players would see and experience is...not a lot. They'd last longer against "superior" opponents and they'd see bigger yellow numbers flash up on screen. Their rotation wouldn't necessarily change. Their gaming experience wouldn't necessarily change. Its a big change to how things work behind the scenes....but players don't live behind the scenes.
    When I had read that, I thought this was a way to possibly test making gear/stats normalized. It very well could be to see how people like it, and how the games go overall. Its smart to use low level first imo.

    Opening up PvP to more players? Making the game system more balanced? Giving the designers the freedom to integrate more PvP hubs and mechanics into the gameworld? I don't see these as bad.

    EJL
    Its not that I want less people to play or have fun, or that I am a "mediore player" that likes stomping baddies or gank low levels(I honestly don't do it). I'm actually low on the arena totem pole. I just have always seen wow as a gear grind, and I like it that way. I feel like I wouldn't care to pvp much if I didn;t have titles/gear and whatnot to reach for. Thats just me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

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