Winning against undergeared people is not rewarding

[Talen]

That sounds good on paper, but noobs will still get stomped.

And....? The goal isn't to ensure that noobs won't get stomped. The goal will be to ensure its not because their opponent is using the crutch of gear to overpower a skilled player.

What I really meant was "if this system is so deplorable, and GW2's is so praiseworthy, why are you wasting your time pvping in WoW?"

Because WoW is overall a better game. But that doesn't mean aspects of GW2 aren't praiseworthy or not worth consideration. GW2 is a fine game in its own right, and good enough at doing what it does. But it ain't WoW.

But if you want to state that WoWs PvP system, with all its imbalances and inequalities and contradictions can't be improved, or can't learn lessons from other games I'd have to simply disagree.

GW2s normalisation mechanic is one that addresses many of the issues that exist with WoWs PvP system. The basic systems needed to implement this in WoW already exist.

When I had read that, I thought this was a way to possibly test making gear/stats normalized. It very well could be to see how people like it, and how the games go overall. Its smart to use low level first imo.

It's a similar system and one I approve of. Having said that, I've found PvP to be most fun when I outplay my opponent. Which doesn't happen if one side drastically outgears the other. The issues with PvP also extend outside the arenas and BGs and the system in play with this doesn't address those issues.

Its not that I want less people to play or have fun, or that I am a "mediore player" that likes stomping baddies or gank low levels(I honestly don't do it). I'm actually low on the arena totem pole. I just have always seen wow as a gear grind, and I like it that way. I feel like I wouldn't care to pvp much if I didn;t have titles/gear and whatnot to reach for. Thats just me.

The gear grind, IMO, works well for PvE. It doesn't work that well for PvP. I don't think it has ever worked that well for PvP and it is major part of the various imbalances and complaints that dog PvP within this game. Because PvP is unfair, because the various systems Blizzard put into place to control griefing didn't work, Blizzard also can't really integrate it into the game world. You CAN segregate PvE objectives by zones....but players move around and don't respect zone boundaries.

If you want to PvP to grind gear, then there isn't any real reasons to stop that. The problem arises in the way gear acts as a performance enhancer in PvP. Separating out PvP and PvE stats, and making PvP totally independent of stats, can be done.

EJL

[CompromisePlease]

And....? The goal isn't to ensure that noobs won't get stomped. The goal will be to ensure its not because their opponent is using the crutch of gear to overpower a skilled player.

The 5.2 changes don't accomplish your goal of gear not overpowering skill either.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...27?page=21#419

The new elite armor will be higher ilvl. So all they have done is shift the ilvl advantage from a 2200 locked weapon to a full set of elite armor that most players will never get because it costs so many conquest points for a full set of elite.

[lolalola]

If you don;t like the subscription model, don;t play games with subs. Simple as that.

It wasn't and isn't a dealbreaker. Plus, the subscription model explains the flow of the game. If subscription model was a dealbreaker for me, I would never have played WoW in the first place.

If you don't spend time in a game, you will fall behind other people. That is just a simple truth.

In a game? Every game?! Untrue! The only way I am behind in GW2 is I am still level ~50 (and I enjoy alts, too). In WoW, I'm on hiatus, but I still have various top100 rankings in challenge mode (I verified this today). I still achieved 9 gold challenge mode. Yes in the gear grind I fall behind, and progress I'm stalled. If I don't play Scrabble or Tetris or Chess for a year I fall behind, I do. Why? How? Skill requires practice.

Now, I do accept grinds in single player games (PvE) and multiplayer coop (PvE). But in PvP... I find it downright silly. PvP should be about skill. Every PvP game barring WoW is about skill. Yet in WoW the biggest mouth breather can walk around as a level 90 with full mal and kill the best rogue in the world who's leveling up her mage alt. Pathetic.

Someone forcing you to change your whole life for them is wrong.

You were talking about a band t-shirt for the love of God. How can one be so attached to what head they're walking around with if others don't even see it. It is the same with your subscription comment. Completely out of its context.

Again, you seem to like playing the game, but don;t like many important parts of the game, and mostly the social aspect of it. Just because you like something about GW2 better, does not mean you should try to change wow to that effect. If GW2 is so great, I suggest you play that instead of changing WoW drastically.

I do like the game, but I'm not much into playing games right now. Also, you're sounding delusional if you think that me discussing WoW's short comings in this forum is in any way "changing WoW drastically." Blizzard doesn't read this forum. WoW is also pretty much showing its age, and I expect subscriber rating to go downward from this point on. But as you're well aware Blizzard is developing a new MMO. And finally, learning from another game or showing how another game does things better isn't a sin. AoE looting was introduced because other games included it.

[Lemonpartyfan]

[QUOTE=lolalola;19942463]

In a game? Every game?! Untrue! The only way I am behind in GW2 is I am still level ~50 (and I enjoy alts, too). In WoW, I'm on hiatus, but I still have various top100 rankings in challenge mode (I verified this today). I still achieved 9 gold challenge mode. Yes in the gear grind I fall behind, and progress I'm stalled. If I don't play Scrabble or Tetris or Chess for a year I fall behind, I do. Why? How? Skill requires practice.

Yes, you are behind in the game. Thank you for admitting it..

Now, I do accept grinds in single player games (PvE) and multiplayer coop (PvE). But in PvP... I find it downright silly. PvP should be about skill. Every PvP game barring WoW is about skill. Yet in WoW the biggest mouth breather can walk around as a level 90 with full mal and kill the best rogue in the world who's leveling up her mage alt. Pathetic.

You think someone leveling a mage alt should be able to beat a 90 in full pvp gear? I'm sorry, but it is about skill. Unless you cheated to get the gear, it takes skill to climb ladders. At 90, I could kill someone sub 90 in all pvee gear, if you think otherwise, you need to try it out I guess.

You were talking about a band t-shirt for the love of God. How can one be so attached to what head they're walking around with if others don't even see it. It is the same with your subscription comment. Completely out of its context.

No, I was not only talking about a band T-shirt. Go back and read the original story. What if your significant other told you that you could only wear High Heels and Dresses when you went out in public together? Kind of ridiculous yeah? Sorry, I would rather wear a nice button down, or a band T-shirt than some crap with big collars from abercrombie and fitch.

I do like the game, but I'm not much into playing games right now. Also, you're sounding delusional if you think that me discussing WoW's short comings in this forum is in any way "changing WoW drastically." Blizzard doesn't read this forum. WoW is also pretty much showing its age, and I expect subscriber rating to go downward from this point on. But as you're well aware Blizzard is developing a new MMO. And finally, learning from another game or showing how another game does things better isn't a sin. AoE looting was introduced because other games included it.

If you can't see how much different this game would be because of normalized pvp gear, especially when compared to aoe looting, then you need to sit and think on it a little more.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 06:29 PM ----------

[QUOTE=Talen;19937925]

And....? The goal isn't to ensure that noobs won't get stomped. The goal will be to ensure its not because their opponent is using the crutch of gear to overpower a skilled player.

I think you guys are over estimating the gear. How would you even gauge if one player is using gear a crutch, and the other "better player" isn't actually just worse than him? If gear were normalized, people would then move on to whine about class balance being the only reason they lose, or OP team combinations. When will it end lol?

Because WoW is overall a better game. But that doesn't mean aspects of GW2 aren't praiseworthy or not worth consideration. GW2 is a fine game in its own right, and good enough at doing what it does. But it ain't WoW.

But if you want to state that WoWs PvP system, with all its imbalances and inequalities and contradictions can't be improved, or can't learn lessons from other games I'd have to simply disagree.

GW2s normalisation mechanic is one that addresses many of the issues that exist with WoWs PvP system. The basic systems needed to implement this in WoW already exist.

I think if GW2 had as many people playing it, you would see just as many problems with it. People would still complain. People would still call it unfair. I just don't think this would fix everything. If they really were great players, they would be better. Whats really stopping them is just takes longer, because people are cheating to get the gear.

It's a similar system and one I approve of. Having said that, I've found PvP to be most fun when I outplay my opponent. Which doesn't happen if one side drastically outgears the other. The issues with PvP also extend outside the arenas and BGs and the system in play with this doesn't address those issues.

I really don't. I fear its showing how this game is only leaning towards end-game. I think its shows that leveling will soon be a relic of past games, and will be deleted from WoW.

The gear grind, IMO, works well for PvE. It doesn't work that well for PvP. I don't think it has ever worked that well for PvP and it is major part of the various imbalances and complaints that dog PvP within this game. Because PvP is unfair, because the various systems Blizzard put into place to control griefing didn't work, Blizzard also can't really integrate it into the game world. You CAN segregate PvE objectives by zones....but players move around and don't respect zone boundaries.

If you want to PvP to grind gear, then there isn't any real reasons to stop that. The problem arises in the way gear acts as a performance enhancer in PvP. Separating out PvP and PvE stats, and making PvP totally independent of stats, can be done.

EJL

If so many millions of people are pvping and having fun with it, how can you say the system has never worked at all? People will complain no matter what, as thats what humans do now. Its not really unfair when every person is allowed the same amount of time to grind for the gear as long as they pay their subs. That doesn't make it unfair, that people want to play less but "keep up."

[Valz.]

All these threads are made of cry babies, seriously, either start living your REAL life and find real problems that need to be dealt with or stop fucking QQing about every single piece of the game you're playing. YOU PLAY MORE = YOU GET BETTER GEAR = YOU GET THE RIGHT TO ROFLSTOPM OTHER PLAYERS, simple as that, stop frigging crying like little girls. I enjoy winning against undergeared players, because they clearly haven't spent as much time as I have on the game.

[lolalola]

Yes, you are behind in the game. Thank you for admitting it..

Matter of perception. I can still level just fine, if I go do PvP it is fair game based on skill.

You think someone leveling a mage alt should be able to beat a 90 in full pvp gear? I'm sorry, but it is about skill. Unless you cheated to get the gear, it takes skill to climb ladders. At 90, I could kill someone sub 90 in all pvee gear, if you think otherwise, you need to try it out I guess.

I don't think the two should meet. In a good ladder system a bad player meets bad players and has a win ratio of roughly 50%. Always. Arena is a good ladder system. The win rating is approx 50%.

No, I was not only talking about a band T-shirt. Go back and read the original story. What if your significant other told you that you could only wear High Heels and Dresses when you went out in public together? Kind of ridiculous yeah? Sorry, I would rather wear a nice button down, or a band T-shirt than some crap with big collars from abercrombie and fitch.

We can discuss when and why.

If you can't see how much different this game would be because of normalized pvp gear, especially when compared to aoe looting, then you need to sit and think on it a little more.

I'm not comparing the two, I'm giving examples.

I really don't. I fear its showing how this game is only leaning towards end-game. I think its shows that leveling will soon be a relic of past games, and will be deleted from WoW.

It isn't even part of some MMOs. If you take WoT for example it is pretty much there but it has different name and structure. Research from Gevlon proved the win rating in WoT is also roughly 50%.

[crakerjack]

I feel like people pull the gear card WAY too much... now I don't have any experience with MoP PvP, but I'm sure it can't be drastically different from any of the other expansions... When I was behind in PvP gear, I was still capable of slaughtering people... why? Because skill is the highest on the priority when it comes to winning in PvP. It goes "Skill>Class>Gear" and anyone who denies that should get better at the game. If you're good enough and know everything there is about your class and every class in the game... you'll be able to predict their moves and how they'll attack and utilize every ability in your book to counter them properly... but that requires a high amount of knowledge of the game and how mechanics work... which most people, including I, don't possess... Though I'd consider myself decent at PvP, played above 2k rating in 3s, but never worked hard enough to get better. And if someone of my small caliber can do just fine with older PvP gear while fighting against people with better PvP gear... then I'm sure most other can... stop living in denial... just because you're top 3 on the DPS charts doesn't mean you'll excel in PvP aswell... your 5 button mashing rotation won't work too well in PvP... because PvP isn't about doing as much constant damage as possible, even though a lot would love it to be that way... there's CC, LoSing, Drinking/eating, a lot more mechanics that you only have to utilize in PvP, which is why most PvE players are unaccustomed to when it happens to them... "Oh what, that's cheap!"... Just have to PvP a lot to get the gist of it.

[Miko]

I feel like people pull the gear card WAY too much... now I don't have any experience with MoP PvP, but I'm sure it can't be drastically different from any of the other expansions... When I was behind in PvP gear, I was still capable of slaughtering people... why? Because skill is the highest on the priority when it comes to winning in PvP. It goes "Skill>Class>Gear" and anyone who denies that should get better at the game. If you're good enough and know everything there is about your class and every class in the game... you'll be able to predict their moves and how they'll attack and utilize every ability in your book to counter them properly... but that requires a high amount of knowledge of the game and how mechanics work... which most people, including I, don't possess... Though I'd consider myself decent at PvP, played above 2k rating in 3s, but never worked hard enough to get better. And if someone of my small caliber can do just fine with older PvP gear while fighting against people with better PvP gear... then I'm sure most other can... stop living in denial... just because you're top 3 on the DPS charts doesn't mean you'll excel in PvP aswell... your 5 button mashing rotation won't work too well in PvP... because PvP isn't about doing as much constant damage as possible, even though a lot would love it to be that way... there's CC, LoSing, Drinking/eating, a lot more mechanics that you only have to utilize in PvP, which is why most PvE players are unaccustomed to when it happens to them... "Oh what, that's cheap!"... Just have to PvP a lot to get the gist of it.

It used to be skill>gear, till MOP. Now you can be a mouthbreather and have full epic pvp gear and steam roll over blue honor geared players. PvP pwer as made it like this.