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  1. #1

    PvE Top DPS Spec for 5.2

    I recently picked up my rogue again and plan to raid 5.2 with it. I'm currently assassination but am seeing a lot of world class rogues switching over to combat and I'm wondering as to what spec will yield the most efficient dps in 5.2. I'm speculating that assassination and subtlety will do slightly more dps than combat (only because of the 75% nerf to flurry). I'm unsure though, what are your thoughts?

  2. #2
    Probably Combat and Sub as they both scale much, much better than Assassination.

    Edit: I'll probably switch from Assa/Combat to Sub/Combat: the EP weights are roughly similar between Sub & Combat (which is not the case between Assa & Combat).

    Also, Assassination, while I like the focus on poisons, feels incredibly boring as is, and I quite despise the high waiting time and the severe lack of control over the results (almost no burst, and a great rogue have almost no significant edge over a good one).
    Last edited by Nryka; 2013-01-03 at 07:13 PM. Reason: Correction by Squirl two posts below.
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  3. #3
    Mechagnome Sanguinezor's Avatar
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    Depending on Fight really.

    Combat takes the cake on cleave fights or multiple adds. Even with the Blade flurry nerf and can Blow a few cd's per fight beocz of restless blades

    Ass would most likely be the choice of spec for fights where the boss is standing still for a long duration.

    Sub for fights with small burst windows.

    Can't really say which is better for which fight but.. If you want a all-round spec that will do 'well' regardless of fight.
    Combat would be the general raid spec to go

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Nryka View Post
    [...] and more importantly they are much higher in values which means they scale much, much better with gear.
    EP is just the relative value of AP for that spec. It doesn't have a whole lot to do with scaling. The most highly correlated scaling predictor is how much of a spec's damage is affected by weapon damage. Combat and Subt have scaled better in the past than Assassination, but it's because the majority of their damage is affected by weapon damage, not because EP has some magical property to predict scaling.

    With the drastic shift from active to passive damage and then to finishers (which scale only with AP), we'll just have to see how it plays out. Once gear is added to the PTR, we'll see some BiS sims and be able to go from there.

  5. #5
    Assassination probably scaled poorly in Cataclysm as the main bulk of its damage - poison, did not crit for 2x damage, weakening the values of agility (slightly) and crit.

    I can't see any evidence for poor scaling so far in MoP, and dispatch has made the spec a bit more dependent on weapons at least.

    If combat stays as is, I'll be very tempted to go Assassination and Subtlety.
    Last edited by Xeast; 2013-01-03 at 08:15 PM. Reason: Clarity

  6. #6
    I assume flurry will be buffed to the point where it will be worth pressing, and not an estimated 8% gain over not pressing it.


    BUT IF IT ISN'T


    Combat has no aoe. Sub has acceptable aoe, and Mutilate has good aoe. None of the aoe is bursty.

    One of the specs will have the highest single target damage. With a 4% buff, it could actually be sub. So:


    If combat is top single target, then the second spec will probably be assassination, because it has better aoe and sub offers nothing but an unforgiving rotation.
    If assassination is top single target, then the second spec be unused in pve.
    If sub is top single target, then the second spec will be assassination if a boss has an execute or aoe.

    Sub could be a viable second spec if the burst requirements dictate it.

    Combat will either be your main spec, or not a spec.

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord AceofHarts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nryka View Post
    Probably Combat and Sub as they both scale much, much better than Assassination.

    Edit: I'll probably switch from Assa/Combat to Sub/Combat: the EP weights are roughly similar between Sub & Combat (which is not the case between Assa & Combat).

    Also, Assassination, while I like the focus on poisons, feels incredibly boring as is, and I quite despise the high waiting time and the severe lack of control over the results (almost no burst, and a great rogue have almost no significant edge over a good one).
    EP Values are on a PER SPEC basis, and are not consistent spec to spec. maybe you should do a little bit of research.

  8. #8
    I think Xeast has nailed it, the scaling we saw in previous expacs was because poison damage got outpaced because of the crit multiplier and lack of mastery buff.

    Assassination is likely to stay competitive for longer this time around, getting to around 150% poison damage with even higher agility will give some big poison numbers.

    Sadly, all passive damage

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by marcelos11 View Post
    EP Values are on a PER SPEC basis, and are not consistent spec to spec. maybe you should do a little bit of research.
    No sh*t, Mr Obvious. To be precise, when I mean the "EP weights are roughly similar", that infers that the stats priority is roughly similar between Combat & Sub, which isn't the case between Assa & Combat.

    Something as obvious as this was easy to understand, but I guess some people need literal exactness.
    Last edited by Nryka; 2013-01-04 at 07:50 AM.
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  10. #10
    Keyboard Turner
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    u cant say (even with sim) what spec is the best!

    first we need to know mechanic on raids, its obvious that some mechanic can give advanteges to spec with we say about - its not good spec for raiding.
    Then we look at gear and sim and what it will tell us.

    For all of years is past when i was playing as rogue i was played almost always in 3 speces - depending on Boss in raid.'


    btw i dont belive BF nerf will come to live
    Last edited by szary; 2013-01-04 at 07:38 AM.

  11. #11
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    I am genuinely intrigued for sub's place come 5.2, with a straight 3.45% increase to dps, not couting prep going baseline and vanish having reduced CD. I already had it placed as competitive, it should now hopefully be a real contender for top spot,
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  12. #12
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    I hope I don't have to carry this crappy Combat round as an offspec in 5.2 - I want a spec that I can completely devote to PvP and not have to change my glyphs / keybinds every time I want to go from PvP spec to Combat spec! *COUGH WHERES MY TRI SPEC

  13. #13
    As pl say if combat remains combat and hell knows if the 75% nerf will be in live i will try subt it looks good... and at least its the spec that does not kill the combo points, its more efficient and really tired of combat rotation. Extra clicks on subt and some fun, but it remains to be seen what the future bosses will be, and the tactics that are needed.

  14. #14
    Verain has said it all.

    Atm combat is needed only for the awesome cleave, otherwise is scrapped. If the cleave becomes not meaningful enough (read: does crap damage compared to the tradeoff) combat becomes pretty much useless.

    All the fight between specs will be about single target damage, and everyone knows that only one spec can be the winner given anything miracolous happens and we end with more or less the same dps for every spec - that would be the only case we're given a choice.

    I don't count aoe - many classes are much better at this; and execute - if specs are balanced, the net dps should be the same.

  15. #15
    The small ap buff to combat won't make it outperform assasination unless it's stat scaling is a lot better than the latter's (which I doubt). Not sure about sub, have to sim how 5.2's buffs effect it's dps but probably due to excellent scaling it will again become quite good by the end of this xpac.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeast View Post
    Assassination probably scaled poorly in Cataclysm as the main bulk of its damage - poison, did not crit for 2x damage, weakening the values of agility (slightly) and crit.

    I can't see any evidence for poor scaling so far in MoP, and dispatch has made the spec a bit more dependent on weapons at least.

    If combat stays as is, I'll be very tempted to go Assassination and Subtlety.
    Assassination still does not scale well. Even ignoring the 5.2 buffs/nerfs, combat was going to surpass assassination in single target early-mid in 5.2. With the buffs for combat, it will happen very soon.

    Assassination has no scaling factors like vitality of combat or sinister calling of sub. Yes poison crits do help, but there is still way too much of a disconnect between melee and poison damage.

    Pretty much things seem to be in the same exact track as it was in cata.
    Tier1: Assa strong, combat & sub behind
    T2: Combat and Sub buffed, combat takes the single target lead, sub catches up at end of the tier
    T3: Sub best single target, combat very close, assa falls further behind

    The only thing that I am not sure about is sub. Sub is still pretty behind now and under-preforming compared to what simulation estimates. Also sub not being the heavy crit bomb spec of old also concerns me. Alot of there attacks are hitting like wet-noodles.

  17. #17
    >>Assassination has no scaling factors like vitality of combat or sinister calling of sub. Yes poison crits do help, but there is still way too much of a disconnect between melee and poison damage.

    Yeah, straight up +20% to all damage is not a good scaling perk...

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I assume flurry will be buffed to the point where it will be worth pressing, and not an estimated 8% gain over not pressing it.


    BUT IF IT ISN'T


    Combat has no aoe. Sub has acceptable aoe, and Mutilate has good aoe. None of the aoe is bursty.

    One of the specs will have the highest single target damage. With a 4% buff, it could actually be sub. So:


    If combat is top single target, then the second spec will probably be assassination, because it has better aoe and sub offers nothing but an unforgiving rotation.
    If assassination is top single target, then the second spec be unused in pve.
    If sub is top single target, then the second spec will be assassination if a boss has an execute or aoe.

    Sub could be a viable second spec if the burst requirements dictate it.

    Combat will either be your main spec, or not a spec.
    sub was never easier to play

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RogueDurr View Post
    Assassination still does not scale well. Even ignoring the 5.2 buffs/nerfs, combat was going to surpass assassination in single target early-mid in 5.2. With the buffs for combat, it will happen very soon.

    Assassination has no scaling factors like vitality of combat or sinister calling of sub. Yes poison crits do help, but there is still way too much of a disconnect between melee and poison damage.

    Pretty much things seem to be in the same exact track as it was in cata.
    Tier1: Assa strong, combat & sub behind
    T2: Combat and Sub buffed, combat takes the single target lead, sub catches up at end of the tier
    T3: Sub best single target, combat very close, assa falls further behind

    The only thing that I am not sure about is sub. Sub is still pretty behind now and under-preforming compared to what simulation estimates. Also sub not being the heavy crit bomb spec of old also concerns me. Alot of there attacks are hitting like wet-noodles.
    Did you miss the part where Assassination's "Assassin's Resolve" was changed from 20% melee damage to 20% of all damage...? That seems like a rather significant scaling factor to me...! That, as well as the crit-buff to poisons, should keep Assassination viable for a while.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Did you miss the part where Assassination's "Assassin's Resolve" was changed from 20% melee damage to 20% of all damage...? That seems like a rather significant scaling factor to me...! That, as well as the crit-buff to poisons, should keep Assassination viable for a while.
    Assassination had that in cata, It was just across two things before and now there combined.

    cata
    Vile Poisons increases the damage of your poisons 20%
    Assassin's Resolve your melee damage is increased by 20%.

    Mop
    Assassin's Resolve your damage is increased by 20%.


    The only new thing is the 200% poison crits on melee hit.
    Last edited by wow; 2013-01-06 at 07:27 AM.

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