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  1. #1

    Mists of Catch 22

    After being too trusting of this PUG leader to not invite people who have no business in N MSV, and then subsequently stupid and impatient in not waiting for an Elegon group, I only got to kill 3 of 6 MSV bosses this week on my DK. Of course, excluding Elegon, who drops the ONLY normal str melee weapons, period, before Ambershaper and Sha of Fear. I have coined Sha of Fear twice on LFR every week since hitting 90 on her, nothing. Now this in of itself isn't too surpising, and I went 3 weeks after my first Elegon kill before getting one of his axes on my warrior if memory serves me correctly.

    The frustrating part is, because I made intelligent BoE investments, got lucky in LFR on 2 off armor pieces and a trinket, was choosy in my first VP and CP purchases and used the item upgrade on my lolweapon, I am at 483 ilvl already. If it weren't for that stupid blue weapon I would be 5-6/6 HoF, 2-3, maybe even 4/4 N Terrace PUG ready (I already have a N Sha kill on my main character as tank and 3/4 in one night as DPS so I don't have any experience issues).

    But by this point, most of the people who still need MSV in your average PUG are not good players and think they can waltz into a normal instance knowing nothing about mechanics in their LFR loot and be handed normal kills like in DS, or are alts of players who have been 6/6 for months and won't tolerate wiping on "easy" stuff even when the character they are in the instance in is undergeared compared to their main. I don't particularly feel like joining a different guild on my DK either, as my play time this semester is going to plummet and I don't want to soak up a weapon and then leave.

    I "need" to be "good PUG" ready on her so I can do something in-game on off nights. I have gotten some good to decent HoF PUGs, but the MSV PUGs I have joined have been really bad. I made my own MSV PUG last week and it went 6/6 but I had 4 guildies in there, 2 of them on their raiding mains who sort of carried the group, and my GM was in the group and "helped" lead.

    So unless I get really picky about whose groups I join or decide I want to make my own MSV PUGs every week, I'm stuck until LFR gives me a Sha touched/Ambershaper weapon, or hell, even a LFR Elegon weapon. This reminds me all too much of Burning Crusade, where if you got even a bit behind the gearing curve, gg, you're stuck in Karazhan/Gruul's/Mag/bad ZA groups and killing Lootreaver in TK if you're lucky. Not to mention that whole guilds got stuck in the catch 22 zone whenever their maintank, best healer or beast DPS decided "Hey I have mainly T5 with some T6 pieces time to join a guild with Illidan on farm and work on Sunwell" ad nauseum.

    I am sure there are a lot of skilled but new 90s out there who are in an even worse position than I am (and I really don't have that much to complain about in the first place - 483 2 weeks after dinging with a pretty normal geared main) because they have no gold for BoEs, no normal experience on another character to link the raid leaders in trade, don't have the reps up to a point where they can spend VP on anything but upgrading LFR loot and have no established guild so they are stuck with aforementioned "whats a mechanic" MSV PUGs. Granted, some of these players who are good do try to go in to normal without reading Icyveins, or even having done it on LFR, period, but once they see the fight and have it explained to them they generally catch on quickly and will then sometimes outperform epic'd people.

    The question is, what do these other Catch 22'd people do? Does Blizzard really expect T14/15 LFR and bad T14 PUGs in T15 to be engaging enough so that someone who is behind the gearing curve will start playing again, get geared up, then told "you don't have any N T15 kills, thanks but no thanks" by the time they are ready for T15 won't just quit in frustration? The "catch up to current content even if you just came back within 2 months of coming back/dinging" genie has already been let out of the bottle by the later patches of both WotLK and Cata and the playerbase has changed, and while I do like the changes they have made to gear/experience acquisition in some regards, I do not think it is healthy for the game in the long run at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemah View Post
    “When people talk about the good old days, I say to people, 'It's not the days that are old, it's you that's old.' I hate the good old days. What is important is that today is good.”
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  2. #2
    Your merit for a pug should not rely on you having a blue weapon or not. A weapon is, while still a good upgrade, still only a weapon.
    Your gear is more than fine for a normal clear of most bosses, maybe excluding Sha (dps req's on the platforms can be pretty steep, as I'm sure you know, dependant on who gets sent there for aura buffs. GG sending a fury warr there without having a monk/mage to buff 5% crit, and relying on a hunter who isn't, etc).
    If people aren't taking you due to your weapon, then it's them who are idiots - not blizzard for their gearing introduction. Pugging raids weren't ment for this content - I recall them stating that they made normals harder than last time around, because they were confident that they could scale LFR to be for people who wanted to see content, and didn't have time to raid in an organised guild, AKA people who would run PuG's. That is why they're failing - normal modes are tuned stricter, far more so, than they were in DS, because they're supposed to be staying in LFR, or joining a real guild and progressing.
    Once people get that into their heads, they'll start looking for the clearing achivements (which you have on your main), more so than gear.

    Also, there was a snippet about a forge in 5.2 that'd allow you to craft raid-worthy weapons. Not sure more info is out, but yea.

  3. #3
    Good PUGs require achievements because it proves that you at least killed the boss on your main and have seen the mechanics first hand. PUGs are for fast clears, not for teaching people what to do on each boss (that's your guild's job).

    No one wants to spend an hour wiping on Elegon because one dps can't burst 700k damage (with a +50% damage buff) in 10 seconds with 480+ ilvl, hence why kill achievements are required.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 12:55 AM ----------

    Good PUGs require achievements because it proves that you at least killed the boss on your main and have seen the mechanics first hand. PUGs are for fast clears, not for teaching people what to do on each boss (that's your guild's job).

    No one wants to spend an hour wiping on Elegon because one dps can't burst 700k damage (with a +50% damage buff) in 10 seconds with 480+ ilvl, hence why kill achievements are required.

  4. #4
    Well, what solution would you propose ?

    Personally I think they're doing good by trying to find a balance between too easy to gear up and too hard to gear up. In Cata I think it was too easy to catch up. And considering it's still only the first tier of MoP, it's too early to tell if they've swung the pendulum too far in the other direction -- but, if you can forge some weapons in 5.2 and considering there will be new wings of lfr for the Thunder King raid, I think it looks to be on a good track.
    --
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  5. #5

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Also, there was a snippet about a forge in 5.2 that'd allow you to craft raid-worthy weapons. Not sure more info is out, but yea.
    Oh shit, forgot about that part of 5.2! I was too busy staring at the pterodactyls, transmog and old weapons announcement.

    I have had one or two PUG leaders turn me down simply because of the weapon, but it's also sort of a personal thing - for some reason I feel like I "need" a weapon before trying hard to get a Terrace run, and to replace that one last blue. Then again we have a DK reroll in our guild who is "lazy" with dailies/BoEs and still has blue bracers, but has cleared 6/6 N 5/6N 2/4N on that character, so you're right - it's not all about gear and PUG leaders are notorious for wanting stupid gear. "LFM ICC 25 N, 5500GS + ach or no invite" anyone?

    I think a step in the right direction would be to modify LFR tier pieces and weapon/trinket droprates based on your normal kills, or kills on other characters. If you have killed say, Ambershaper on toon 1 on Normal when he was relevant in T14, in T15 he would have a much higher chance of giving you a LFR Scimitar, Amber Scalpel or tier pants on both toon 1 and toon 2. Same goes for using a coin on a T14 normal boss in T15. This would make playing catchup with an alt easier, or getting that one last stupid piece, while not making LFR "mandatory" at the tier's start like it sort of was for T14 since lots of people still had blues in week 2 of MSV.
    Last edited by Freedom; 2013-01-05 at 06:04 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemah View Post
    “When people talk about the good old days, I say to people, 'It's not the days that are old, it's you that's old.' I hate the good old days. What is important is that today is good.”
    ― Karl Lagerfeld
    FIRE GIVES ME BIGGER BLOOD SHIELDS

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    Oh shit, forgot about that part of 5.2! I was too busy staring at the pterodactyls, transmog and old weapons announcement.

    I have had one or two PUG leaders turn me down simply because of the weapon, but it's also sort of a personal thing - for some reason I feel like I "need" a weapon before trying hard to get a Terrace run, and to replace that one last blue. Then again we have a DK reroll in our guild who is "lazy" with dailies/BoEs and still has blue bracers, but has cleared 6/6 N 5/6N 2/4N on that character, so you're right - it's not all about gear and PUG leaders are notorious for wanting stupid gear. "LFM ICC 25 N, 5500GS + ach or no invite" anyone?

    I think a step in the right direction would be to modify LFR tier pieces and weapon/trinket droprates based on your normal kills, or kills on other characters. If you have killed say, Ambershaper on toon 1 on Normal when he was relevant in T14, in T15 he would have a much higher chance of giving you a LFR Scimitar, Amber Scalpel or tier pants on both toon 1 and toon 2. Same goes for using a coin on a T14 normal boss in T15. This would make playing catchup with an alt easier, or getting that one last stupid piece, while not making LFR "mandatory" at the tier's start like it sort of was for T14 since lots of people still had blues in week 2 of MSV.

    No reason. If the trend with badge/justice/VP gear is followed as it's been the past few years, you'll be allowed to buy an *entire* 489/496 gearset, minus the weapon (which will then be crafted) through running random heroics.
    Remember, we've never had this much extensive point gear - you'd usually get 2-3 pieces a tier, and those might even overlap between tiers, so at best, you could get a mix of TXX/TYY/TZZ gear on half your items, and had to get rest from raids/LFR. This time around, every single piece (even the trinkets and rings, due to dominance offensive) will be able to be aquired for JP. Why would you want 483 items when 489 is so easily aviable?

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    I'm sorry.

    PuGs that take anyone died with the merging of the 10 and 25 lockout. It used to be do one with your guild and the other in a PuG, but now everyone saves their lockout for their guild, leaving the players who don't have a guild run each week out on their ear.

    And then, after the first tier, because you didn't have any of the achievements because you couldn't get into the raids, you now can't join a guild that does raid current tier because you have no achievements from the previous tier. This goes on ad infinitum (if you let it).

    A solution? 10-man Normals on an LFR-style queueing system. Opens a week after LFR opens (two weeks after Normal opens, or "Week 3"), requires a full LFR clear, another item level jump up from the item level requirement of the last raid, and queued normal bosses are gated at one boss per week (that is, only one boss killable during week 3, two bosses during week 4, and so on). Other than that, it's EXACTLY the same as Normal (and burns your lockout).

    Problem solved. After a few weeks you have built up some of your Normal achievement such that guilds will consider you for recruitment, and by the time you are even able to clear Normals this way, most guilds should be done with Normal and have moved on to Heroic.
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  9. #9
    I remember pugging back in early Wrath, prior to achievements, gear score, LFD, and LFR. Back then, pugs judged you on random stuff like your spellpower. So I think it's relatively enlightened that they now look at your ilevel and achievements.

    Pugs having arbitrary requirements isn't a new thing. If you don't like it join a raiding guild.

  10. #10
    I'm fairly sure that a ~480 char will have no trouble joining a normal mode guild. I see announcements all day and people don't ask too much. After that, if you think you can go higher, you switch to a guild with some heroics. After that, if you think you can go higher, switch higher. Just as you said.

    Most guilds accept people which have less kills/experience than them. The cath up mechanic is what always have been, jump guilds until you find yourself at one with your desired level. Those new players shouldn't have problems to catch up. If they do, T15 in a month, wait for it and jump into a normal mode guild.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-01-05 at 10:21 AM.

  11. #11
    pugs suck, what do you expect?

  12. #12
    If you're lucky enough to be on a server where pugging terrace and HoF is even considered, you're on a server with raiding guilds to join.

    If you are as skilled as you say, then you *will* be able to find a group that fits your schedule. (even if its an erratic one).

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer thunderdragon2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Good PUGs require achievements because it proves that you at least killed the boss on your main and have seen the mechanics first hand.
    raid clear acheivements now are gained from either lfr or normal now there isn't an achievement specifically killing normal anymore

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    raid clear acheivements now are gained from either lfr or normal now there isn't an achievement specifically killing normal anymore
    Tranquil Master, which is the achievement required for most 4/4 ToES PUGs on my server, would like a word with you.

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer thunderdragon2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Tranquil Master, which is the achievement required for most 4/4 ToES PUGs on my server, would like a word with you.
    forgot about that but it has nothing to do with puging msv normal, or most of hof for that matter
    Last edited by thunderdragon2; 2013-01-05 at 10:50 AM.

  16. #16
    I always used to armory and inspect people that joined pugs with me. I'd be pretty vocal about taking anyone who looked poor but in a polite way. I was mostly a pug tank on a quieter server though so I had a little more sway with threats like "if he stays I go"

    I think the most viable option here is to make your own pug.

  17. #17
    i still dont have a 489 weapon.. clear'd elegon like 9 weeks so far in lfr.. and around 4 in normal mode.. no wep from him.. using coins every try.. im stuck using a 483 wep which while it isnt blue, its still kinda shit. the rest of my gear is 483 or better... anyway

    get fakeachievement thing and say u beat elegon.. watch the fights enough on fatboss youtube and u should be fine.. elegon isnt a hard concept.. the only thing u might get screwed on is if u cant clear stacks fast enough and its just unlucky.. also try applying to a decent progressing guild.. as long as u have some basic achievements or previous raiding experience like heroic fl/DS/ anything.. or a main that you raided on at one point.. most guilds would be happy to gauge your dps and then put you in as a recruit.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    No reason. If the trend with badge/justice/VP gear is followed as it's been the past few years, you'll be allowed to buy an *entire* 489/496 gearset, minus the weapon (which will then be crafted) through running random heroics.
    Remember, we've never had this much extensive point gear - you'd usually get 2-3 pieces a tier, and those might even overlap between tiers, so at best, you could get a mix of TXX/TYY/TZZ gear on half your items, and had to get rest from raids/LFR. This time around, every single piece (even the trinkets and rings, due to dominance offensive) will be able to be aquired for JP. Why would you want 483 items when 489 is so easily aviable?
    If I understand Blizzard's intent right, the valor gear we have now will still be costing valor for the rest of the expansion.

  19. #19
    I'm also casual, but I accept that this is just the way it is. With the addition of LFR a lot of the decent casuals (like me) just run that and don't bother with the hassle of setting up normal mode raids. So you end up with raider alts with every achievement under the sun and baddies that think MC still requires 40 men and want to do everything without the common sense to check they are half decent enough to do it.

    As a casual it really doesn't matter which weapon you end up getting, just keep running LFR until 5.2, gives you something to aim for and really if you are casual you don't REQUIRE a new weapon.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    I have had one or two PUG leaders turn me down simply because of the weapon, but it's also sort of a personal thing - for some reason I feel like I "need" a weapon before trying hard to get a Terrace run, and to replace that one last blue.
    Our hunter is doing heroic sha progress with a blue bow (yes, he is that unlucky). It's simply a matter of perception both from your side and from the raidleaders you were contacting.
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