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  1. #1
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    [5.2] What is the Water Elemental glyph for now?

    Since we're no longer using Freeze in PvE (I just confirmed it doesn't work on bosses/unfreezeable enemies), is there any point to bothering with this glyph for PvE? The elemental doesn't really die unless focused down by enemies (which happens never) and if he's not in range, he can move up a bit.

    So while I'm glad I no longer have a giant elemental in my way (unless there's some unknown reason to use it for PvE), I'm pretty annoyed that we have no choice in Frost PvE Glyphs anymore. Ice Lance, Evocate, and Icy Veins will essentially be our only choices (IV is assuming you're fairly well geared in the Haste department). We have literally no other choices for glyphs, and I could have sworn Glyphs were supposed to be an actual choice...

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  2. #2
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Since we're no longer using Freeze in PvE (I just confirmed it doesn't work on bosses/unfreezeable enemies), is there any point to bothering with this glyph for PvE? The elemental doesn't really die unless focused down by enemies (which happens never) and if he's not in range, he can move up a bit.

    So while I'm glad I no longer have a giant elemental in my way (unless there's some unknown reason to use it for PvE), I'm pretty annoyed that we have no choice in Frost PvE Glyphs anymore. Ice Lance, Evocate, and Icy Veins will essentially be our only choices (IV is assuming you're fairly well geared in the Haste department). We have literally no other choices for glyphs, and I could have sworn Glyphs were supposed to be an actual choice...
    Well the water elemental waterbolt does a fair bit of damage and if you move it when unglyphed it can't cast so that's a dps loss. Plus the elementals waterbolt can proc FoF so that's another dps loss if you move it.

    In general you're right though we don't have much choice in major glyphs. At the moment we only have the 4 choices. I do swap out evocation for counterspell on wind lord because I'm on interupts for one of the battle-menders.

    I highly doubt that we won't get water jet or some other mechanic to replace the lost FoF charges from freeze because we would just end up spamming frostbolt even more than we do now.

    What I really want is some more minor glyphs. Momentum is required and the only other one thats useful at all is rapid teleportation. I'd like to see a cosmetic glyph thats good like some of the other classes have.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2013-01-04 at 07:40 AM.
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  3. #3
    Public Test Realm

    And its even the first patch, maybe they didn't yet get to implement some changes to the first "ptr" patch, but that doesn't mean water jet is not on their internal testing allready. Plus PTR is there to test things out, so it is not the final product and spells could be lacking till the very end of ptr and it still doesn't mean they aren't gonna hit live and vice versa.

  4. #4
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Well the water elemental waterbolt does a fair bit of damage and if you move it when unglyphed it can't cast so that's a dps loss. Plus the elementals waterbolt can proc FoF so that's another dps loss if you move it.
    Well it's a 45 yard range. Most bosses I know barely will most out of this radius. Also, where does it say Waterbolt proccs FoF???

    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    I highly doubt that we won't get water jet or some other mechanic to replace the lost FoF charges from freeze because we would just end up spamming frostbolt even more than we do now.
    But now all we have is Frozen Orb and Frostbolts. This effectively RUINS me on P2 Elegon unless I get ridiculously lucky. This was a huge nerf to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    What I really want is some more minor glyphs. Momentum is required and the only other one thats useful at all is rapid teleportation. I'd like to see a cosmetic glyph thats good like some of the other classes have.
    I do too. Tired of all the shit minors we've been given.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Public Test Realm

    And its even the first patch, maybe they didn't yet get to implement some changes to the first "ptr" patch, but that doesn't mean water jet is not on their internal testing allready. Plus PTR is there to test things out, so it is not the final product and spells could be lacking till the very end of ptr and it still doesn't mean they aren't gonna hit live and vice versa.
    I know it can change, but what does that really have to do with this thread? All I asked was what the point of the glyph was, currently.

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  5. #5
    On singletargetfights u could swap out icelance and take... wait... u are right there is no good option. And if we loose fireblastglyph in 5.2 there is one lesser option.
    To your mainquestion: The glyph is then only for pvp.
    Minorglyphs: Take illusion. Its really funny. I think there are enough good and funny small glyphs.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Also, where does it say Waterbolt proccs FoF???
    No idea. I'm probably just wrong on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    But now all we have is Frozen Orb and Frostbolts. This effectively RUINS me on P2 Elegon unless I get ridiculously lucky. This was a huge nerf to us.
    You could just use water jet after you kill your spark to get your FoF procs. It's harder than just using freeze but still doable. It's too early to say that we will definitly lose the FoF charges from freeze without them being replaced by something else.
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  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    THe PTR's Freeze hasen't lose FoF charge. It only proc it on target that can be freeze, restraining it utility in raid fight. But it will be pretty useful in PvP, BG, dungeon, scenario, levelling, etc. Even on fight like Will.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    On singletargetfights u could swap out icelance and take... wait... u are right there is no good option. And if we loose fireblastglyph in 5.2 there is one lesser option.
    To your mainquestion: The glyph is then only for pvp.
    Minorglyphs: Take illusion. Its really funny. I think there are enough good and funny small glyphs.
    NP, Roll arcane and you dont need any glyphs..

  9. #9
    I find how it enables the elemental to cast while moving awesome, actually. Running away from an AoE spot casting scorch with my elemental casting along with me is always nice.


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  10. #10
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    There's really no point to it, and there was little point prior to 5.2 either (given the disadvantage created by the size and the buggy targeting mechanics).
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    There's really no point to it, and there was little point prior to 5.2 either (given the disadvantage created by the size and the buggy targeting mechanics).
    But that can be said on allmost every glyph for mages in PvE. Glyphs seem like they had 1 guy making them and he didnt PvE at all as a mage, they are incredibly PvP oriented, with allmost every glyph being in way or another useful for PvP.

  12. #12
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    But that can be said on allmost every glyph for mages in PvE. Glyphs seem like they had 1 guy making them and he didnt PvE at all as a mage, they are incredibly PvP oriented, with allmost every glyph being in way or another useful for PvP.
    /shrug.

    If you ask me the glyph system should be the primary way of deliniating PvE and PvP. Like...I dunno...making Frostbolt snare at the cost of damage or whatever.
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  13. #13
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    /shrug.

    If you ask me the glyph system should be the primary way of deliniating PvE and PvP. Like...I dunno...making Frostbolt snare at the cost of damage or whatever.
    That would be too easy and logical.

  14. #14
    I'm not sure I'm following the conversation in this thread.

    Are people complaining that there aren't any mandatory PvE glyphs?

    Isn't that a good thing?
    I think so.


    As far as the Welly goes, I think the glyph is fine. Sure, its super situational, but hey, so are so many other glyphs (for other classes too). One of the side effects of 'removing mandatory glyphs' across the board will naturally be the rather 'mehness' of the remaining glyphs. Its not that big of an issue tbh imho (mages have other bigger issues right now). I have 50 million of those tomes of the lolmind on me anyway, so switching glyphs around isn't that big of a deal.

    All that being said, what I think is worse is glyphs being used to 'patch-fix' things that should be baseline anyway. E.g there is absolutely no reason for glyph of slow or glyph of deep to exist. Both their effects should be baseline.


    Slow in general needs a massive, massive boost and/or overhaul. In a world where everyone has snares and snare breaks coming out their asses, Slow is just absolutely left behind. I mean ffs, the spell hasn't changed since it was used in Warcraft III (on the sorcs). Its ridiculous not to evolve it.
    At the very least, its target limit needs to be removed (esp now since fairy fire's limit was removed), its GCD cost needs to be reduced (base 1 sec gcd), it needs to automatically apply on AB casts and finally, it needs a stacking secondary effect.

    Maybe something like, "AB automagically applies Slow. Every subsequent AB cast increases the snare and casting slow effect by 5% per cast. Stacks up to 4 times" i.e. maximum of 90% snare and 45% casting slow on a single (PvP) target, which makes sense, since you'd need to pump 4+ ABs to make that happen.


    I mean seriously, did anyone ever really think Arcane could make it in PvP with Slow being the only spec specific tool it has? Its laughable to think that especially when you compare it to the toys Fire and Frost gets (DB, Comb stun, FoF, Frost Orb, ranged pet nova, ranged on demand deeps, the list goes on). Whoever thought Arcane would be fine when the only thing it has to make up for all the things on that list is a snare?
    /facepalm

    I mean srsly guys, lets make some noise about Slow.


    p.s. yes, I did just hijack this thread about Welly and make it about slow, because, honestly, Slow is a much bigger issue than the Welly right now. We already know the Welly is getting waterjet, but we have no info that Blizz is even looking at Slow.


    edit: maybe cleared on ABr. The slow 'stack' that is.
    Oh god.. i fear Arcane might end up becoming the 'stack management' spec soon (/sadface). Similar to how Frost became 'proc management' instead of 'the spec that freezes and shatters things'.

    Man, the loss of spec identity is such a great loss for the mage class as a whole in MoP. Though I guess that is true for many classes now, esp with the MoP talents 'model'.
    Last edited by zomgDPS; 2013-01-05 at 12:27 AM.
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  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Oh god.. i fear Arcane might end up becoming the 'stack management' spec soon (/sadface). Similar to how Frost became 'proc management' instead of 'the spec that freezes and shatters things'.
    You mean how arcane has "supposed" to have been since they introduced mastery?

    Frost feels too much like whack-a-mole PVE.
    Last edited by spaace; 2013-01-05 at 05:36 PM.
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  16. #16
    Are people complaining that there aren't any mandatory PvE glyphs?
    Don't think so. What I read from this thread, the complain is that there are too few glyphs that have any use. So if 5.2 drops tomorrow as-is, a Frost mage would have 3 glyph slots to fill with 3 glyphs to choose from. See the problem?

  17. #17
    Obviously the solution is to remove one glyph slot from Frost mages. *cough*

  18. #18
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Are people complaining that there aren't any mandatory PvE glyphs?
    Quite the opposite. For frost it's pretty much the same glyphs for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Obviously the solution is to remove one glyph slot from Frost mages. *cough*
    What we need is the water elemental glyph made baseline and someone at blizz to sit down and think about mage glyphs for a while and come up with a heap of new major glyphs that are actually good for different fights.

    I would at least like to see some good minor glyphs. One to make spells match your spec would be nice but it would require a fair bit of work so it's unlikely.

    Maybe a few minor glyphs to change how the water elemental looks. I mean completely different models not just size changes.

    Some minor glyphs that change how evocation and rune of power look would be good too.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2013-01-05 at 08:41 PM.
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  19. #19
    I would love a minor glyph of Frostfire Elemental.

  20. #20
    Let's be honest, the Water Elemental should behave as he does under the glyph by default. He doesn't do that much to begin with, so having to manage him otherwise is just needless overhead on top of needless overhead that the devs have been piling on us. It leaves me with having to chose WE over Evocation glyph, as I take IV and Icelance, and that kind of needles me.

    On the PTR, the WE freeze will not proc FoF on the raid dummies, works the same on regular targets. I'm going with the general consensus that if it stays that way, we will have the new WE spell to make up for it in the raid. Just like I am not 100% sure that inferno blast not spreading Living Bomb is necessarily intended, but maybe disabled until they finish sorting how the new glyph will work.

    Patience gentlemen and ladies. Let's act more like the masters of the forces under our command and less like... I dunno, Discworld Mages from the Unseen quibbling over a bit of Dibbler's sausage.

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