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  1. #1

    Sith Warrior Story: Plot Holes. Plot Holes everywhere *SPOILERS*

    Hello folks. Right off the bat, I should probably inform you that I'm more of a lurker and not a poster type; and as my posting history would imply, I only do it when I feel it's most necessary. So, no confusions about that.

    But when I talk about necessities; this is ought to be the most dire. So, to fill you in, I've playing SWTOR since the official launch date, and so far I've played a Jedi Knight (Level 37), a Sith Sorcerer (Level 50) and a Sith Warrior (Level 45); whose story had compelled me to make this post.

    So I see a lot of people picking apart Inquisitor story, comparing it to "ghostbusters" and I can't help but laugh it off. I mean, really? Now, I'm not so sure how Sith employ the usage of Force Ghost, but those Sith Lord ghosts look pretty powerful - if not powerful enough to be en par with Jedi manifestations; which are prescedented by Obi-Wan in New Hope as being "most powerful than you can ever imagine", and you get to BEND - As a Dark Side Inquisitor at least, as per my playstyle - these ghosts of legendary Dark Lords of the Sith to fuel your power by ancient and long-forgotten rituals and take down one of the twelve most powerful Sith below the Emperor - as said by Darth Baras in SW story - along with half the Jedi Order; padawans, knights and masters, and people still bitch about the Inquisitor story about being laughable and compare it to ghostbusters? I'm not going to comment further on this issue; as I believe I've my point and the issue here clear enough, so moving on.

    Now, after Inquisitor story has teased me, rewarded me and entertained me throughoutly, Sith Warrior story has nothing but a -huge- letdown. I'll elaborate why in excruciating detail:

    1. After Inquisitor story had set the prescendent of just -how- powerful a Lord of the Dark Council is, it's almost laughable how you take down Darth Vengean down at your 40s (I was at my 40s when I killed him and I'm not sure about appropriate level flow so). Yes, lorewise you took him down together with his apprentice but in-game he just stood there while you kicked Vengean's ass. Now, what I'm getting at is: You did this "for" Baras. But the question is: Why? I'm looking at it from a Dark Side perspective and I just can't figure out WHY would you just let Baras reap the spoils IF you can take down a Dark Council member in hand-to-hand combat - which in-fact, qualifies you as taking the seat in the Dark Council of the aforementioned member, again prescendented by Inquisitor story - why not just kill Baras aswell and take the seat for yourself? You've just killed a freaking Dark Council member, whose power has been set in stone by Inquisitor story, why can't / don't you kill Baras aswell? Are we led to believe that Baras is more powerful than Vengean? If so, why doesn't he just do the deed himself instead of sending a lesser to do it for him? You might say that that's his "way"; as in he gets his minions to do his stuff for him, but would he really put -all- of his plans in jeopardy, just beacuse he doesn't want to move his fat ass from his quarters? I dunno really. Please explain how this hole makes sense, beacuse I can't make sense of it for the life of me.

    2. Shortly after you get Baras to his new station of power, he betrays you (Woah, who saw that coming amirite), so does Vengean's old apprentice; Lord Whatshisface and they conspire against you; trapping you under rocks and stuff alive. Then these guys called Hands find you, help you and you become the Emperor's Wrath. Then with their continued help, you start extracting your revenge from Baras, attempting to prevent him from being the Voice of the Emperor and winning. The issue here is that you do this slooooowly, loads of preparation and stuff. What I'm trying to get at is; why don't you just go to Korriban, march to the chambers of the Dark Council - slash your way if you have to. Don't ask how; you're the freaking Emperor's Wrath. If you say that it's implausible; know that you won't even -have- to, beacuse of the point I'm going to make right now: Other Sith can "sense" the truth in your words when you tell them you're the goddamn Emperor's Wrath - which pretty much puts you above the Dark Council and below / equal to Voice of the Emperor and they obey you. I mean, the assassins that serve under Darth Ekkage just do when you tell them to, why won't the lowly Honor Guards that protect Korriban? Or the Dark Council? You'd think that they'd be able to have as much as sense as some bullshit assassins. So why don't you just march to them and tell that Baras is a hack? Oh wait, the Hand guys tell that "Baras has become a lot more powerful". Right. More powerful than 11 other Dark Council members + you combined? What bullshit is this?

    So I was going to argue a point about the personality of Dark Side Jaesa but I'm tired of typing now and I want to keep playing, so I'll do it later / won't do it. Anyway, the main point of this post was to argue about the holes in SW story, and my humble request of the community; which is to argue such other stories in the game - for my selfish desires to avoid them after I'm done with the Sith Warrior. Thanks, and bye!

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire viciouss's Avatar
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    You point of view comes as narrow minded and I truly mean no offense. For defeating the council member power comes in many forms not just in combat. He reminded me alot of baras not much in combat, but amazing at politics and deception. For the final confrontation you need to set up having baras lose all credibility, do you think he didn't have a plan c in case he and his apprentice died? I would think he had up to plan g. To fullystop his plans and solidify yourself as the wrath you needed that preparation.

  3. #3
    Pandaren Monk
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    Yes, I finished the sith warrior storyline today. I must say that it was incredibly disappointing. I didn't like it at all the way through. They put Quinn betraying you in there to have *something* in there and it was very poorly executed. The dark side option was light side... at best. It was also very anti-climactic. I have a lvl 50 IA as well, so I might be biased, because that story is so incredible. Fire the script writer of the sith warrior, bioware. Seriously. Half-arsed mediocre crap.

    It's the most fun class though.

  4. #4
    Hm what are you talking about. The warrior story has been all i was expecting so far, mindless carnage and obeying my master. So you thought that by killing a member of the Dark Counsil you are now fully qualified to replace him? With what followers? What back-up? What alliances with other Lords and politicians? What connections to stop you from being instantly thrown off the Counsil by others plotting against you? That would be quite thoughtless the way politics work. Obviously the script could have been a little better explained and not so abrupt but i don't see anything too far fetched in there.

  5. #5
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konstance View Post
    Hm what are you talking about. The warrior story has been all i was expecting so far, mindless carnage and obeying my master. So you thought that by killing a member of the Dark Counsil you are now fully qualified to replace him? With what followers? What back-up? What alliances with other Lords and politicians? What connections to stop you from being instantly thrown off the Counsil by others plotting against you? That would be quite thoughtless the way politics work. Obviously the script could have been a little better explained and not so abrupt but i don't see anything too far fetched in there.
    I don't really agree with the OP, because I don't think the "plotholes" are the problem. The problem I feel is that the story is the most predictable piece of garbage ever, and when they "try" to put some kind of twist in there it's so incredibly dumb and tacked on there. Like Quinn. Baras turning on you, well that could be seen a mile away. I knew that when I first met him on Korriban. The end is so bad... it's almost funny. You go into the room, say "I'm gonna end you lol!", kill Baras and that's that. You don't even get an ending scene at the ship with your companions or a holo from the Hand. You get a mail with an epic companion gift and a message from the Hand "we'll call you sometime". My fucking god. IA story man... IA story... learn sith warrior script writer...

  6. #6
    As I saw from the replies, I'm going to elaborate when I said that SI story had set in stone that when you kill a Dark Council member, you replace them: After defeating Thanaton in the Council chambers, you get an epic fucking cutscene in which you completely anhhillate him, and when he's scurrying away on the floor, one of the Darths break his neck with the Force. After that, they do a "Ah well, that's done" speech and one of them points to Thanaton's place and says "Your seat, my lord." To that, I chose "I'm honored, but I just wanted to kill Thanaton" and the guy says "Don't be silly. When you best one of the Council members, you take their place."

    But the point is waaay over your head when you say "but you need friends in high places lol", beacuse you OBVIOUSLY need friends in high places to even be able to get a legit jump on a Council member without getting nuked from the orbit - which you get to do thanks to Baras, but my point was that after you're dealt with Vengean, there is no one stopping you from killing Darth Baras aswell and assuming his spot and his entire power base. You might argue that he might have a plan for that, but really, common sense would argue that you'd be able to foil any of that hack's plans after you are promoted to be the one of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy. It's not like Baras' servants will oppose you when you tell them that you're the boss now. Would they dare to oppose a Dark Council member out of petty spite?

  7. #7
    Pandaren Monk
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    But Emperor's Wrath is explained to be on par or higher than the Dark Council members in the hierarchy. The only one you answer to as Emperor's Wrath is the emperor. The Dark Council members answer to the whole council as well as the emperor. You carry out missions for the emperor, but you don't operate in the same way the council does, you're more involved in actual missions than the politics the council members deal with.
    Last edited by Khanjin; 2012-01-30 at 05:01 AM.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire MmoFanatic's Avatar
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    The problem with what u sed is that u can't go around killing dark council members right and left and tell them "lolz i'm zee wrath deal with it" no that wont work. In the EMPIRE it is illegal for "sith to kill other sith" and as they tell u in the IQ story that the Dark council don't really like people that fuck up their game. So if u would just have walked in and tried to kill Baras without no prof to support your actions the other Dark council members would have killed you for it.

  9. #9
    When he said "strike me down and I will become more powerful blah blah" in the movies, he just meant he would come back and tell Luke what to do, give him info. not like he was going to be some crazy ass powerful jedi ghost.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Khanjin View Post
    Yes, I finished the sith warrior storyline today. I must say that it was incredibly disappointing. I didn't like it at all the way through. They put Quinn betraying you in there to have *something* in there and it was very poorly executed. The dark side option was light side... at best. It was also very anti-climactic. I have a lvl 50 IA as well, so I might be biased, because that story is so incredible. Fire the script writer of the sith warrior, bioware. Seriously. Half-arsed mediocre crap.

    It's the most fun class though.
    I agree with the Quinn betrayal. If it was any other NPC, my SW would have slaughtered him on the spot for betraying me. But Quinn gets special treatment just because he's your companion and you can't kill/get rid of companions. It was a pointless and very dumb plot moment.

    As for the end, I enjoyed it. Getting to kill Baras was very satisfying after spending 10+ levels chasing him down.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-30 at 09:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MmoFanatic View Post
    The problem with what u sed is that u can't go around killing dark council members right and left and tell them "lolz i'm zee wrath deal with it" no that wont work. In the EMPIRE it is illegal for "sith to kill other sith" and as they tell u in the IQ story that the Dark council don't really like people that fuck up their game. So if u would just have walked in and tried to kill Baras without no prof to support your actions the other Dark council members would have killed you for it.
    In the IA story, a Dark Council member fakes his death and attacks and kills thousands of Empire citizens and at the end, he just gets to go to trial, he may even be re-instated... I found that to be weird.
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  11. #11
    SI ending is much better then the SW one. Even tho story was somewhat good, the ending was disappointing. I expected something more brutal and awesome not just 'derp, ur dead'.You could've ,lets say,force choked him and throw a lightsaber in his eyeball or just squeeze his fat ass until his eyes pop out and he explodes, And as for the Quinns betrayal i really don't understand why cant oyu just kill him. I would rather be 1 companion short than having him around.Plus they made it so like it seems nothing even happened.'I betrayed you hurr durr' -'itsoknp'. Really? I mean REALLY??

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire MmoFanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharrel View Post
    SI ending is much better then the SW one. Even tho story was somewhat good, the ending was disappointing. I expected something more brutal and awesome not just 'derp, ur dead'.You could've ,lets say,force choked him and throw a lightsaber in his eyeball or just squeeze his fat ass until his eyes pop out and he explodes, And as for the Quinns betrayal i really don't understand why cant oyu just kill him. I would rather be 1 companion short than having him around.Plus they made it so like it seems nothing even happened.'I betrayed you hurr durr' -'itsoknp'. Really? I mean REALLY??
    in Beta u could kill him when he betrays you but to many people cried that ohh nooo i did i just kill of my healing companion? so they had to make companions not killedble

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer shadowkras's Avatar
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    They dont instantly recognize you as the Emperor Wrath because the emperor is MIA for years during that time, you just managed to rescue his true Voice from a cave in Voss, or you space-bar'ed that quest?
    So how would they know if you are speaking the truth? The Hands act in the shadows and answer only to the emperor, so even if both of them walked together with you into the dark council, your words would have little merid.
    Not to mention that you had to weaken baras first, if you fought him and his apprentice at once you would have been destroyed in seconds. Specially considering he still had the Sith Entity powers which was released/destroyed at the end of coruscant story.

    But the question is: Why? I'm looking at it from a Dark Side perspective and I just can't figure out WHY would you just let Baras reap the spoils IF you can take down a Dark Council member in hand-to-hand combat - which in-fact, qualifies you as taking the seat in the Dark Council of the aforementioned member, again prescendented by Inquisitor story - why not just kill Baras aswell and take the seat for yourself?
    Because you must first be a Darth before you can claim a seat on the Dark Council.

    why not just kill Baras aswell and take the seat for yourself?
    Because, at that time, you werent expecting him to betray you. And you cant take the seat because you need backup from other council members (which baras had).

    Are we led to believe that Baras is more powerful than Vengean? If so, why doesn't he just do the deed himself instead of sending a lesser to do it for him? You might say that that's his "way";
    This enforces my view that you ignored half the story quests.
    Baras's plan was that, if his mere apprentice can take a Darth, the master must be way more powerful, so his supporters on the council would need to give him a chance and let him take his master (vengean) spot.
    And he couldnt directly kill Vengean because that would be treason. You are explained this rule while still in Korriban.

    You HAD to get support from another Council member or they all would lightning-rape your face the moment you walked in their room.

    Other Sith can "sense" the truth in your words when you tell them you're the goddamn Emperor's Wrath
    And this isnt a passive superpower that all Sith have, otherwise Jaesa's power would be meaningless in the whole story, and Baras would never have convinced others that he was the true Voice. Or rather, nobody would lie or betray in the whole freaking empire if sith could sense lies.

    As for Quinn, thats a personal opinion, but BioWare did that so you wouldnt lose your only healing companion, and honestly, your only chance to solo Baras on the final fight.

    It really seems like the OP ignored half the plot, so obviously he will find many holes on it.
    Last edited by shadowkras; 2012-01-30 at 11:07 AM.
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  14. #14
    IMO you need to stop Space-barring the story.

    It made sense to me, didn't really see any plotholes at all, and you don't just become a dark council member, you are the Emperors Wrath, and you prove it so. Which means the Dark council must abide you.
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  15. #15
    Part of the story between betrayal and resolution is undermining Baras' influence on the Council. The Council you face at 50 is not the same Council you would've faced at...whatever level it was, 35? 40?

  16. #16
    The only attrocious part with the SW storyline was the Quinn piece, which was basically a remnant of how the game used to allow you to kill companions. It's odd they just didn't remove that part, but oh well. I'm pissed I couldn't kill him for that, it's not like you don't have a second healer in the Ship Droid.

    As for the rest, I think Baras' plan actually makes sense considering his single strength lies in his ability to scheme. What I don't get is how Baras would be so utterly retarded as to betray you, because up to the point to where he became a Darth, he was strangely positive to my lack of respect and sarcasm. Then he asked me to kneel (quite literally), just to later backstab me.
    It would've been far more logical for Baras to put the Sith Warrior on the Council by making a scheme to eliminate an advesary like Vowrawn, ending the apprenticeship. The SW would've been forced to cooperate with Baras becauseof how the other Council member would be very wary about that duo, but at the same time, couldn't do much with it.
    Heck, Baras would've pulled off his plan by allying with the SW.

    As for the Ekkage and True Voice parts on Belsavis and Voss... those made sense, as did the Jaesa arc in chapter 1 and eliminating Vengean in chapter 2.

    ...I preferred it over the Sith Inquisitor, at least. That was just too much of a joke after a certain point. :/

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer shadowkras's Avatar
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    Heck, Baras would've pulled off his plan by allying with the SW.
    But he honestly believed that the SW would die during the cave in, but he was saved by the Hands.

    Truly enough, he could simply have sent you to some impossible missions and be done with you. Plan Zero makes me think he was trying to kill you and sent you against some enemies that he thought you wouldnt be able to handle, but you did. So he tried to send you against his master to weaken him, when in fact you managed to kill vengean and force him to try a more direct approach, assassination.
    People take stupidity to a whole new level when they sit in front of a computer.

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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Khanjin View Post
    Yes, I finished the sith warrior storyline today. I must say that it was incredibly disappointing. I didn't like it at all the way through. They put Quinn betraying you in there to have *something* in there and it was very poorly executed. The dark side option was light side... at best. It was also very anti-climactic. I have a lvl 50 IA as well, so I might be biased, because that story is so incredible. Fire the script writer of the sith warrior, bioware. Seriously. Half-arsed mediocre crap.

    It's the most fun class though.
    The Quinn betrayal is the only real disappointing aspect to the story and it was made that way because of player feedback during the Beta process. Originally you were meant to have the option to kill him and you can see that if you read the quest dialogue options over at Torhead. It would have started with the choking and then you would have chained him up in your ship and Jaesa (if dark) would be torturing him finally culminating with the option to honor him by killing himself or causing him further shame by having Jaesa or Pierce off his traitorous ass. Vette would be on board up to the point of torture but then would argue for leniency in the presence of his remorse over his actions. At any point during that you would have the option to "save" him and keep him as a companion but if you killed him, he was gone. No replacements, no other options, just minus one companion.

    They had options like that for many of the companions but people complained about how it affected their play experience after they had lost one of them so Bioware removed the option. I think it's a shame since it really did make for much more compelling game play. I'm on my second run through of the warrior class quests and knowing that killing him isn't an option just ruined the experience of that quest for me. First time I agonized like crazy about what to do because I thought I could kill him. Choked him probably half a dozen times but escaped out before the option completed because I wasn't sure I could deal with having the robot as my only healing companion. Ended up forgiving him leaving a bitter taste in my mouth that I felt I needed him that much to forgive that much of an indiscretion while at the same time had me gushing to friends about the intensity of that choice.

    Then I went to the forums and found out that I couldn't have killed him anyway. Which had me looking forward to doing it on my Marauder and yet, the fact that I couldn't kill him ended up making it a very unsatisfying experience. Incredibly compelling gameplay ruined by forum whining from people unwilling to accept that their actions, even when in a game, should have consequences. Hopefully they will reinstitute the old quest options that could kill off your companions when they add additional ones into the game.

  19. #19
    I'd like to debunk a few arguments here and take my leave - if it wasn't for this little thread I'd be 50 by now, so you'll have to excuse me. A couple of things sprung to my mind when I read these:

    The problem with what u sed is that u can't go around killing dark council members right and left and tell them "lolz i'm zee wrath deal with it" no that wont work. In the EMPIRE it is illegal for "sith to kill other sith" and as they tell u in the IQ story that the Dark council don't really like people that fuck up their game. So if u would just have walked in and tried to kill Baras without no prof to support your actions the other Dark council members would have killed you for it.
    This is the very essence of Baras' main plan: 1. Executing Plan Zero, 2. Setting up the stage for Vengean being disowned by the Dark Council, allowing Baras to have him assassinated, further allowing him to take his place. The very essence of this plan entirely relies on your unwitting trust and loyalty - virtues that a Dark Side SW would surely lack; also I'd like to further elaborate that my entire first post was from a Dark Side perspective. It's entirely plausible to follow this plot if you're a Light Side character, i.e. stupid. At the point of Vengean's downfall, you're an apprentice. Your master has set up a plan to elevate himself in power while screwing you over (I mean come on, Baras literally betrayed half the galaxy - necessary exaggerations - right in front of you. You carried his ENTIRE plan and done all his DIRTY WORK. Assuming that my in-game character is null and stupid enough not to realise that Baras HAS to take him out to ensure his success is one thing - but I saw the betrayal come a mile away IRL. The point I'm drawing here that it ruined all the immersion seeing my character railroaded into a coma of stupidity) Also it goes without saying that apprentices take out their masters to take their place. This shit happens all the time, even before the Rule of Two. It's even somewhat respected - and I believe that the SI ending proves it. You know, after you kill Thanaton right in front of the Council they just don't zap you to death.

    When he said "strike me down and I will become more powerful blah blah" in the movies, he just meant he would come back and tell Luke what to do, give him info. not like he was going to be some crazy ass powerful jedi ghost.
    I assume that this poster hasn't been anywhere close to SI story or Empire storyline in Dromund Kaas. Obi-Wan might not pull some fancy tricks, but the ghosts of the long-dead Sith Lords in the Dark Temple have literally drove everything crazy. There is even one Sith Lord that got duped into believing that she is an apprentice of some other Force Ghost. Hell, at one point, after acquiring the Force-Walking ritual and bending the first ghost Sith Lord to your will, Thanaton KILLS you but the ghost of the Sith Lord's power keeps you alive - this is CONFIRMED by Khem-Zash at the very scene. I don't know what "being more powerful than you can possibly imagine" exactly means, but I'm pretty sure this is it.

    Shadowkras
    I'm not going to go on a point-by-point rebuttal here beacuse I'm not lame and I got levels to gain, but two things:

    1. Baras states that Vengean "failed" in the eyes of the Dark Council and he can be taken out without retaliation when he sends you after him. There was a choice to ask "Why don't you do it?" but I chose "This is the ultimate rush!". So I'm not sure why Baras didn't do it himself. Probably beacuse he's had too many nerfburgers that day, fuck knows.

    2. After being sent after Darth Ekkage, Baras' sister, at one point you go after her battallion of assassins. When I confronted them, I chose to tell them "I am the Emperor's Wrath. Obey me" instead of flat-out attack, and the spokesman - may not be his exact words but I'm pretty sure "sense" was there - says "I sense the truth in your words...we will follow you" and they join you. Though I agree that this makes Jaesa's power null; I suppose we can argue endlessly that how they feared you bla bla how they wanted to abandon Ekkage so they joined you bla bla and draw endless connotations...Or, we can take what the guy says: He managed to sense that you were the Emperor's Wrath. Ofc it can be said that this itself is stupid as it nullifies Jaesa but it's there, in the fucking game. I rest my case.

    I don't know how you guys view it, but I just got the vibe from the SW story the vibe I've gotten from prequels: My character, whom I wished to play as a pinnacle of carnage and malevolance had unwittingly trusted Baras, who got away with countless schemes betraying other people, when there is absolutely no reason to take him out - and I'm going to make this point again, look it up if you want; but even when Rule of Two wasn't in place; APPRENTICES DEFEAT THEIR MASTERS TO TAKE THEIR PLACE. This is the natural -order- of the Sith way. Rule of Two only confirms it: "I am the master, you're the apprentice. When you're powerful enough to defeat me, I've served my purpose." There are countless cases of people being disposed of by Sith - or characters - beacuse "they have outlived their usefulness". But yeah...when I think about the SW story, I just can't help but recalling Revenge of the Sith. You know, after Anakin's been rushed into the suit, and he asks "Where is Padme?" and the Emperor tells him that he killed her in his anger, Vader just believes him. Yep, I guess you can just trust the guy who just got away with lying to the whole galaxy. No problemo. I know there are obvious stuff like "why can't you just turn your opponents' lightsabers off with the Force, why couldn't Vader sense Leia being her daughter" etc., but well, SW story was nothing short of "poetic" as Lucas once said in rhyme with prequels, and that just pissed me off. Well I dunno, that's just my two cents. Peace!

  20. #20
    Pandaren Monk WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    I enjoyed the SW storyline, and for the most part it made sense for me. I agree the Quinn part made me a little frustrated because from a Meta-Perspective I would never willingly kill my healer, but from an RP standpoint his ass would be out the airlock. But the SW storyling really didnt have the urgency that the JK storyline did (only other one I've completed), and I found that fun. I basically could cruise the galaxy killing Jedi and banging Sith.

    The betrayal was expected, but it was clear that in order to defeat Baras you would need to crumble his empire. The biggest key to victory was killing his super psychic prisoner, which required getting in good with one of the Dark Council who hated Baras. Could you have walked into the Council Chamber and immediately challenged Baras? No. According to the dialogue that chick was basically responsible for the bulk of Baras's strategic positioning. So she was a crucial piece to eliminate. Destroying Baras's entire empire also made his defeat complete, especially since I decided not to kill him but to imprison him so that he could relish in his defeat.

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