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  1. #1

    Did the Forsaken get a new "image" since Cataclysm?

    I remember before Cataclysm the Forsaken were just assumed to be "evil" and any outlier were just that. Since the "1-60 remake" happened the Forsaken intro and starting zone paint a much more benign picture of their situation and focus on it being voluntary and a matter of redemption, vengeance and second chances.

    Point is, this is the original intro from Vanilla.




    And this is the new one from Cataclysm.

    Praise the Quest Writers for they give life to otherwise boring expansions.

  2. #2
    Legendary!
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    I dont think death is a very voluntary thing....

    But Forsaken do have a renewed sense of pride and power now.
    That one Forsaken NPC puts it pretty well, that they are now a force to be reckoned with, not some wretches hiding out in run-down buildings
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  3. #3
    Blademaster Mindyourbaal's Avatar
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    It doesn't say that they are evil, more that they are defending themselves against the people that would seek to destroy them thinking that they were the same as the scourge. It is just much more obvious in the cata intro. If anything they are painted as being cornered and at risk of being destroyed and not evil at all.
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  4. #4
    Not really. The Forsaken campaign in all the neighbouring zones display them conquering and crushing local resistance, spreading as far as Arathi Highlands. If you played Vanilla you carried out a vigilante campaign against the Hillsbrad town collecting the skulls of workers, soldiers and town officials. This is extended to the creation of a concentration camp in Cataclysm (admittedly run by a rogue Forsaken who went mad, but still). I think the emphasis on their evil is now a more imperialistic, depraved and cruel vein, rather than the generalized sinister vibes they had in Vanilla. I see what you mean by the concept of free will being more emphasized though.
    Last edited by Rainiothon; 2012-12-28 at 08:39 PM. Reason: cataclysmic mispelling

  5. #5
    If you start an Undead toon now, it is after the events of the Wrathgate. Whereas if you started one in wrath, or prior to wrath, the events of the Wrathgate haven't happened yet in the lore.

    Initially the undead are part of the horde out of convienience, alliance sure as shit wont take them, and being a third faction is a bad idea because then you have two enemies instead of one. After the wrathgate the undead are on even more shakey ground, as lots of sub factions within the Horde do not trust the Undead to not try something again. The remaining Apothicary Society members are constantly being watched by representitives from the Kor'kron Elite, with good reason, it was a splinter cell within the AS they attacked both the horde and the alliance at the wrath gate.
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  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Mandible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    I remember before Cataclysm the Forsaken were just assumed to be "evil" and any outlier were just that. Since the "1-60 remake" happened the Forsaken intro and starting zone paint a much more benign picture of their situation and focus on it being voluntary and a matter of redemption, vengeance and second chances.
    What do you mean "evil"? Its never been any secret that they wanted revenge, or that it mainly due to horde was the only ones who wanted them in that they went allied (and that any humans or otherwise they knew in life shunned them even though they were sentient undead). This hasn´t changed after cataclysm, but Sylvanas has realised that she can´t just give up on the forsaken because she got Arthas(dk445).

    Now there could be an agenda beyond that, but hard to tell 100%.
    Last edited by Mandible; 2012-12-28 at 08:41 PM.
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  7. #7
    Ohh I miss the old wow...
    Here, try this

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lor...ner/1#readmode
    Last edited by Ikkarus; 2012-12-28 at 08:45 PM.

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Absolutely. Prior to Cataclysm I kinda enjoyed their story.

    Prior to Cata we saw them as a race that was more or less breaking every moral code in the book for the sake of vengeance against the Scourge while being ravenously hunted by the Scarlet Crusade. At times they were rotten to the core and evil and were all to happy to stab their "allies" in the back at a moments notice, then they had moments where you did feel a bit of sympathy for these people who had been turned into walking corpses.

    Now they're evil. They're a race now pretty much hell bent on killing everybody who aren't one of their "allies" (for now). Plague everywhere, Necromancy and open betrayal of the Horde with their disregard for the use of a banned weapon. They're sadistic and really don't give a toss for who they kill. They're now content with raiding their foes into their sorry state of existence for the sake of conquering more land and keep Sylvanas alive.
    "The hunter is nothing without the hunt" pretty much sums them up atm imho, they've had their revenge on the Scourge and Arthas and now they've rather lost the plot.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-12-28 at 08:50 PM.

  9. #9
    They were never evil. It was always about reclaiming themselves from mindless undeath.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandible View Post
    (and that any humans or otherwise they knew in life shunned them even though they were sentient undead).
    Hence the name?

    Forsaken by the light
    Forsaken by the living
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mandible View Post
    What do you mean "evil"? Its never been any secret that they wanted revenge, or that it mainly due to horde was the only ones who wanted them in that they went allied (and that any humans or otherwise they knew in life shunned them even though they were sentient undead). This hasn´t changed after cataclysm, but Sylvanas has realised that she can´t just give up on the forsaken because she got Arthas(dk445).

    Now there could be an agenda beyond that, but hard to tell 100%.
    In Vanilla you had quests in Brill, that still exist in another form, for gathering herbs to make better plagues and poisons for The Dark Lady. Did you forget about the New Plague and the Blight that was to be tested on "the living?" The Novel in which Sylvanus watched as her R.A.S. tested their concoctions on living and Undead prisoners to see how quickly and efficiently it would break down both the living and the undead? What about the orders from even Garrosh himself to never use these against Gilneas only to have them immediately layered on the townsfolk who weren't even warriors until their town filled with an occupying army?

    The Forsaken were always suppose to be the faction of genocide and cruelty. This'll be the second time today I've posted this but why not:

    Even the Frostwolf clan refuses to join or even aid the current Horde because of the Forsaken's past actions:
    Praise the Quest Writers for they give life to otherwise boring expansions.

  12. #12
    You thought they would be sulking around old ruins forever?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Hence the name?

    Forsaken by the light
    Forsaken by the living
    Well; it's summed up pretty well, but leaves something to explain.

    The Forsaken are 'forsaken' because they are basically one huge pile of post traumatic suffering. Even after they had reclaimed their freedom, their kin denied them. All this pain, all this suffering... While many of them still believed in the Light, the former Priests among the undead started preaching that the Holy Light had forsaken them. They felt removed from the world of the living.

    Undead can wield the Light. No problem. But they need to have faith, they need to feel the completeness of the universe. They need to feel the love. And through all this, the undead that became the Forsaken have, by and large, lost this connection. Because of their ordeals, they've lost love, hope and forgiveness, and instead, gained hatred and a lust for vengeance. Those are the principles of the Shadow; the mirror-religion that is mostly the same as the Light, yet at the same time it's polar opposite. The philosophy of the Shadow was created by those undead Priests who first preached that the undead were, indeed, Forsaken.

    Not all of the free undead joined the Forsaken, by the way. Some for their own selfish reasons, and others for the simple reason of wishing to be distanced from that dark group of self-loathing people. Not all of the undead have lost connection with the Light. But those... Those are not Forsaken. The faction of Forsaken have that one thing in common: They have removed themselves from the light.

    That means that, if you'd roll a Forsaken priest, if you then pick 'Holy' at level 10, you're effectively not Forsaken. If you use any Light spells as an Undead priest, you are not Forsaken. Your character stops being Forsaken the moment they reconnect with the Holy Light.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    That means that, if you'd roll a Forsaken priest, if you then pick 'Holy' at level 10, you're effectively not Forsaken. If you use any Light spells as an Undead priest, you are not Forsaken. Your character stops being Forsaken the moment they reconnect with the Holy Light.
    It was stated that holy and discipline trees are avalaible to them purely because of gameplay reasons.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Even after they had reclaimed their freedom, their kin denied them.
    Their version of "reclaiming their freedom" consisted of them killing their kin after betraying them.
    People are happy to ignore that that when the Forsaken (Before they were even called that) first met a part of Humanity the two actually formed an alliance of convenience and this was considering the leader was one of the most racist and bigoted leaders to ever grace Warcraft. One of the agreements was that the living would get Lordaeron. Sylvanas and the Forsaken chose not to abide by this.
    The fact is they denied their kin first.

  16. #16
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    They are in no way "evil". They are just better at what other factions invented - massacring others, imprisoning them and whatnot. Well, at least they give enemy soldiers second chances.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    They are in no way "evil". They are just better at what other factions invented - massacring others, imprisoning them and whatnot.
    Define "evil" then.
    Praise the Quest Writers for they give life to otherwise boring expansions.

  18. #18
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Ever since Cata they have been Lawful Evil and in Sylvanas's case probably Neutral Evil given how she states in her Short Story to have no regard for the Forsaken and that they are just a tool for her to not die.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeutralEvil
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-12-28 at 11:12 PM.

  19. #19
    Yes. The forsaken in vanilla were a tragic bunch. They held little power in the horde and heavily relied on its alliance with the orcs to keep themselves sustained. They were the victims of unspeakable evil and that evil rotted them to the core and began to warp their minds and souls, I think most forsaken despaired at what they had become in vanilla. Their only goal the one reason to walk on the planet was to make the one who did this to them suffer and die. After wrath they played an important role in the Horde's victory as well as fucking it up along the way.

    What then? The Lich King is dead and so is their purpose to exist. Blizzard recognised this and shaped the forsaken's story away from tragedy and despair and into one of pure cruelty and borderline insanity/evil. They are no longer victims, but the perpetuators of horrific acts, they even gain pleasure from the suffering of others. The forsaken have now embraced undeath they see it as a gift, they exist only to secure their empire and eliminate the alliance and then the living from their lands. I don't blame blizzard for this, as it would have rendered the forsaken pointless if they didn't have a shift in goals. They are without a shadow of a doubt the "bad guys" which you can play. Which is good, it mixes things up a bit and breaks the "hero of Azeroth" cliche crap that's been going on. You become a champion of the forsaken, you're spreading disease and undeath through out Lordearon is that good for Azeoth? Not a chance. Is it fun as hell and does it suit the forsaken? Definitely.

  20. #20
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Their version of "reclaiming their freedom" consisted of them killing their kin after betraying them.
    People are happy to ignore that that when the Forsaken (Before they were even called that) first met a part of Humanity the two actually formed an alliance of convenience and this was considering the leader was one of the most racist and bigoted leaders to ever grace Warcraft. One of the agreements was that the living would get Lordaeron. Sylvanas and the Forsaken chose not to abide by this.
    The fact is they denied their kin first.
    I can't really blame them, they needed to make that false promise otherwise they wouldn't have any help against the Burning Legion that was in their city.

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