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  1. #1

    [5.1][Feral] An idea of how much DPS a Feral should do

    Hey all,
    I'm currently iLvl 468. Basically, this is me:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Snowbat/simple

    But my DPS seems to be a little low. I'm only doing about 33k on a Raider's dummy, sometimes peaking at 36-37k when I use Berserk for example, but most of the time I stabilize at 33k.

    My rotation is as follows (I use WeakAuras to help me know when to use what)
    1- Savage Roar. I have an aura that pops up as soon as the buff expires so I can immediately put it up again
    2- Rake. Here too, I have an aura that pops up as soon as the debuff is no longer active on the target
    3- Faerie Fire. Another aura that tells me when Weakened Armor expires on my target
    4- Mangle spam till I hit 5 CP. At that point, I use Rip.

    In the meantime, I also do this:
    - If my Energy gets lower than 40 and Tiger's Fury is off cooldown, I use it
    - If my target has 4 or 5 CP and Rip is not active on it, I use Ferocious Bite
    - I pop Berserk on Nuke phases

    So basically, I'd like to find out if I have such low DPS because my gear isn't that good yet, or is it because I'm missing something fundamental in my rotation? Or perhaps I just need to practice more to learn to properly manage CP's, Energy and CD's?
    Also, I'm often conflicted on what priorities to give when my target has 4 or 5 CP: if Savage Roar is expired and there is no Rip on the target, what should I use first? S.Roar, Fer.Bite or Rip? What's the priority between those three?
    And last but not least, I often find myself depleted of Energy. AutoAttack is my main damaging move... is this normal?

    Thanks for any info guys. I really enjoy playing Druid and I want to become better at it.
    Last edited by Snowcat; 2013-01-05 at 12:02 AM.

  2. #2
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    1. Heart of the Wild, change that to Nature's Vigil, unless you're comfy enough to use DoC

    Assuming you will use Nature's Vigil
    2. Always open with FF > SR > Mangle to below 35 energy (3-4 combo points) TF + NV + Synapsis + On-use trinket 1 > Rake > Rip at 5 (This needs to be done before SR expires)
    If your around 35-40 energy after that opening > SR + On-use trinket > Berserk to avoid energy capping + racial if it's of any value, can't remember what the Worgen is:-)
    Since your an engineer, the synapsis tinkering on gloves will offset with trinkets sooner or later, I'd suggest you start looking for some procc based trinkets instead.

    Single target you can essentially keep that rotation going endlessly, at times you'll have energy where you need to decide wether to use it on an extended SR, or just continue Shred spam, or use FB for a minor heal + a followed free HT from PI.

    3. Since I assume you won't be using DoC due to you being slightly insecure about what's happening, I suggest you drop to 3% hit n' reforge into what spreedsheets / sim etc tell you, would be your best stat at your current gear point as you have energy refund for missed hits (I promise you, you won't miss a lot anyway with 3% hit)
    Also, don't go for the socket bonus in your belt, you can easily stand to lose that 120exp, and gain a lot more AP by gemming pure Agility.

    Lastly, but not least.., enchants, dude
    Last edited by Banzhe; 2013-01-05 at 12:47 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Flamebat View Post
    - If my target has 4 or 5 CP and Rip is not active on it, I use Ferocious Bite
    There is something horribly wrong with that. You priorities for finishers are:
    Savage Roar,
    Rip,
    Bite.
    For starters you want to use your combo points in a way that allows for the highest uptime on savage roar, then rip. If you will not lose any uptime by using a ferocious bite (berserk maybe) you use that in stead.

    You really want to make a better weak aura for your savage roar and rip. You do not only want to know when they are not on the target, you want to know how much time there is left on them. This allows for finding out which finisher to spend cp on.

    There is some more involved stuff with using ferocious bite for the soul of the forest energy gain, but until you really are sure about your feral do not worry about this. Just read and understand the sticky guide on this forum.

    And shred. As soon as you understand your uptimes and are able to get some good ones use shred in stead of mangle. Just keep in mind that it generates less cp per energy so there might be times where you'd want to use it. Common sense is a friend here.

  4. #4
    468 gear, unless it's seriously lopsided, should allow for ~55k dps on a target dummy and perhaps 65-70k dps single target in a raid. (add 1.5k per ilvl you upgrade as a rough rule of thumb.)

    Don't forget thrash on ooc as well.

  5. #5
    Thanks for the tips all of you.
    So if I understand well, if I happen to have 4 or 5 CP and both Savage Roar and Rip expire, I need to prioritize Savage Roar over Rip? And Fer. Bite should only be used if both SR and Rip are active and not close to expiration?

    I added timers to my Rip and SR auras so I can see how much time is remaining.

    The problem I have with Shred, is that I did a LFR yesterday and in messy fights (read: most of the fights) there's so much stuff going on that you often simply can't see if you're on the right side. Or the boss keeps turning around all the time.
    Once I get more familiarized with the correct management of CP, I'll give it another try though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post
    2. Always open with FF > SR > Mangle to below 35 energy (3-4 combo points) TF + NV + Synapsis + On-use trinket 1 > Rake > Shred at 5 (This needs to be done before SR expires)
    I didn't expect that. So I only use Rake after having done those other moves first? I always opened with Rake right after SR till now...
    And indeed, I'm not yet comfortable enough to use DoC. I did change my talent to Nature's Vigil too.
    Last edited by Snowcat; 2013-01-05 at 12:38 PM.

  6. #6
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamebat View Post
    Thanks for the tips all of you.
    So if I understand well, if I hapen to have 4 or 5 CP and both Savage Roar and Rip expire, I need to prioritize Savage Roar over Rip? And Fer. Bite should only be used if both SR and Rip are active and not close to expiration?

    I added timers to my Rip and SR auras so I can see how much time is remaining.
    I haven't experienced a point where both SR n' Rip will expire (or about to expire) at the same time, unless the encounter calls for me to move away from the target in such a manor that I can't sustain Rip- Elegon during orb phase can have those moments early on until you get comfy

    If that is the case though, since Glyph of Savagery is around now, prioritize getting preferably a 5th combo point on your target, followed by a new Rip as you don't need the CP's for SR.., but there are times where you'd want to prioritize 3-5 CP SR (Usually when Berserk is active and there's multiple targets) to allow for a more fluid sequence in terms of rotation and / or on target swapping.

    FB if everything aligns well enough to the point where you don't suddenly have Rake / Rip falling off (usually comes naturally with experience, and / or energy regen), however, if the target is below 25% hp, you would want to continuously Shred even if there's 5 CP on the target instead of refreshing your Rip to early with a FB, this is in order to avoid wasting ticks on the current Rip.
    This is usually also the time where you'll find you have excess energy when using Berserk n' having a 5 CP SR, you just need to reach a point where your comfy enough to get that into the entire length of the fight regardless of the encounter.
    Last edited by Banzhe; 2013-01-05 at 12:49 PM.

  7. #7
    So if I understand well, if I happen to have 4 or 5 CP and both Savage Roar and Rip expire, I need to prioritize Savage Roar over Rip? And Fer. Bite should only be used if both SR and Rip are active and not close to expiration?
    Yes that is true. Keep in mind if you see that moment incomming you and can get 5 cp fast you can and should overwrite the current and active rip and then do a low combo point savage roar. As you get more used to the rotation those moments will occur less and less often.

    About the shred. Yes it can be messy. It also is stuff you will get used to after raiding (or lfr or other stuff) for a while.

    When I started playing my feral in ds I had difficulties with keeping up my stuff and I had some quite bad uptimes. Ultraxion with mangle glyph comes to mind. I had issues with that.
    Now in mists I am very used to the rotation and feel of the class and even though they upped the difficulty by a TON it feels much easier for me to execute properly now.
    Just keep going. I see you are somebody willing to improve, that is all you need.

  8. #8
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    You don't seem to be such advanced and hige experiansed with Feral druids DPS wise, I'd recommend using Incarnation and Nature's Vigil in the level 60 and 90 tier because they are the easiest talents to handle.

    Basically a prio order going like this;

    Keep Weakened Armor debuff on the target,
    Keep Savage Roar up at all cost.
    Keep Rip up with 5 cps lining up Tiger's Fury is a bonus
    Keep Rake up; A rule of thumb when not using DoC would be that every other Rake should be used together with Tiger's Fury.
    Bite if Rip has X ammout of time left and Savage Roar 4-5 seconds left and you have 5 combo points; (X would be the nummber of time it takes you to build up 5x CPs again to put Rip up as fast as possible while not using SofT aggresive useage of FB and lower Rip uptime is not ideal)
    Thrash on OoC procs or if you are @ 5 CP and want to wait for an good time to spend your 5 CPs on SR or Rip for example.
    Shred to build combo points Ravage if Incarnation is up.

    If you get used and feels like you master this rotation you can always pop on the guilde here and read up litle more indepth information.
    Always choose a lazy person to do the difficult job!
    Why?
    He will find an easy way to do it.


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  9. #9
    Thank you very much all. I think my first mistake is to allow Savage Roar to expire too often. Adding a timer to the weakaura really helps in making sure I use it again any time I see it approaches 0.
    I added another aura that tells me when OoC procs so that I can use Thrash. But far too often, I see the Thrash aura appear, but I still accidently use another ability. I'm just gonna have to practice to react better to it
    I think that's what it comes to now: I now simply have to play and practice a lot to get used to the CP and cooldown management. I used to play Fury Warrior and I have to say... it was much easier.

    But it's the fact the Feral Druid is so hard that actually makes it interesting to learn

  10. #10
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    If you fancy trying out power aura's at any stage, this should help you manage your SR up time, it's displayed when SR have 9 seconds left (can be annoying if your going with a 0 CP SR), but useful if you get an extended SR up in Berserk phases, and want a bit of time to decide what should be prioritized before re-applying SR.

    Version:4.23.11; InvertAuraBelow:10; anim1:4; icon:Ability_Druid_SkinTeeth; buffname:Savage Roar; x:4; customname:Savage Roar; alpha:0.55; duration:10; speed:1.31; stacksOperator:=; customtex:true; combat:true; size:0.37; y:-133; finish:3

  11. #11
    Well, I might go back to PowerAuras as soon as it works properly with MoP. I'm kinda getting used to WeakAuras now though.
    Anyways, I updated my auras and rotation:

    1) SR (has a timer that shows me when it expires)
    2) FF
    3) Rake (has a timer that shows me when it runs out)
    4) Shred till 5 CP (once I get below 30 energy, I pop TF)
    5) Rip (got an aura that pops is I got 5 CP and Rip is not active, also has a timer that shows when it'll expire)

    That's how I open. After that, I basically follow a set of priority rules:
    - Keep SR up. If I see the timer gets close to 0, I use it, no matter what. I consider SR having the highest priority
    - Keep Rip up. I'll refresh if I have 5 CP and SR has enough time left. I noticed that often I have to let Rip expire in order to make sure SR stays active though... is that ok?
    - Keep Rake up
    - Keep FF up
    - Whenever OoC procs, I Thrash (but sometimes, in the heat of the action, I accidentally use another ability instead)
    - Use F.Bite only if Rip and SR have enough time remaining and I have 4 or 5 CP on the target.
    - I'll use SR if it's close to expiration even if I have 5 CP on the target.
    - I use TF every time my energy is 30 or lower and if it's off cooldown
    - In nuke phases, I use Nature's Vigil and Berserk

    Does this sound ok? I wish I could give you guys some sort of log that tracks what abilities I used in what order and when so you could see for yourself...
    I also regemmed my belt to pure Agility, like you suggested.
    What I also noticed, is that one time I do a measly 31k on a dummy and another time, with the same gear and rotation, I do 42k. There are moments where I have the feeling I'm always low on energy and I'm auto attacking most of the time, and then there are moments where I feel it sorta all falls into place and I'm able to use lotsa abilities in the correct order.
    It's odd how random it can be hm?
    Last edited by Snowcat; 2013-01-07 at 08:34 PM.

  12. #12
    I noticed that often I have to let Rip expire in order to make sure SR stays active though... is that ok?
    No it is not. As you get more used to the rotation you will know how quickly you can gain combopoints in certain situations, and therefore you will be able to know if you should refresh your savage roar with 3 cp in stead of 5 and get a 5 cp rip up in time.
    Just keep practising. Lfr is probably the best place for that.

  13. #13
    Sorry for the bump, but I did a run of Mogu'shan Vaults yesterday with my guild. Apparently, they advised that I first learn to master my class better before I can really do progress runs with them
    I agree with that since I used to be a Warrior and I changed to Druid only when MoP came out. So I really am not used nor experienced with this class yet.
    Ok so my guild apparently already has world of logs and they even uploaded the fight I did with them yesterday. First non-LFR raid ever with my Druid...
    Am I allowed to link the fight here?
    It's this one:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/28qwj8hyvyijbqqp/
    The most interesting is probably Gara'jal because that's the one where I could use my rotation uninterrupted the most. At least it'll show you the abilities I used and the percentage of my total damage they did. And yes, you might cringe at my noobness... but bear with me. As I said, I'm really new to Druid.
    In case you had't realized, my name in game is Snowbat :-)

    It's a French guild so I hope the abilities' names are not in French on worldoflogs for you... if they are, let me know and I'll translate.

  14. #14
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...um/damageDone/

    The logs you linked, aren't the correct ones, or at least I don't see your name in them. The ones above are ones I found with your name in, and were recent.

    Few things I noticed.

    1) Your rip up time is really low. WoL is showing 70%, this should be at least around the 90% mark. This is quiet a big DPS loss alone. (gara'jal)
    2) Enchant your weapon, even wind song, providing its going to give you the mastery, is quiet a big boost in terms of dps, considering it directly effects our bleeds. Dancing steel is even better, but I understand, I also didn't put steel enchant on my blue weapon lol
    3) Your bleeds should technically be doing more damage, try stacking more mastery. Rip/Rake do normally around the same damage per fight then your auto melee, sometimes yours are considerably lower. (This would link to keeping good up time on them in point 1).
    4) Your crit also seems incredibly low. I notice you hardly get any crits at all on some fights, most likely just RNG but seems weird at the same time.

    Rip up time can be solved by using Bite less often, I noticed on some fights you used it quiet a lot. If you are keeping rip and SR up, you shouldn't have much time to use a bite, often during berserk and sometimes during normal rotation but even then expect rip to fall off. Rule of thumb I follow is to use it if rip has 6+ seconds left, it's then a DPS increase to get the most out of rip while its still ticking and do a good amount of damage with bite, enought to compensate the loss of up time on rip.

    Other small stupid things like the Darkmoon faire trinket, it's quiet a large DPS boost if you got the money for it, and will last you until you hit HC raids. The same could be said about 496 crafted epics. They are still expensive but it shows you are committed to putting in extra effort to be raid viable. Remember things like pre-pots/flask/buff food, should go into a raid with enough to last a few nights, just in case things take a turn for the worst.

    All of that said, the biggest DPS increase, for me, is to learn the fights inside out. I use to run away from fengs Epicenter even when the tank would nullify it. Was a major dps loss and caused me to be close to button on ranks, but I learned from it, squeezed in that little extra, made sure I could keep my bleeds on the boss by applying them with good timing so that they wouldn't drop off while I was away. They might look small in theory, but make the biggest difference in practice. Try keep your active time as high as possible (shown in WoL)
    Last edited by Moosie; 2013-01-18 at 03:34 AM.
    Moosie <After Hours> : Feral / Restoration

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Flamebat View Post
    4- Mangle spam till I hit 5 CP. At that point, I use Rip.
    eh? take mangle off your bars. you're dps will increase dramatically.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    eh? take mangle off your bars. you're dps will increase dramatically.
    0.11% is hardly dramatic.

    Mangle definitely belongs on your bars - it's a dps increase in certain situations even. For a new feral who is learning the spec, I'd even recommend using it as the main combo builder.

  17. #17
    Thanks a lot mates.
    So I got a question about Rip and it's timer.
    Lets say that I have 5 CP on my target and a comfortable remaining time on both SR and Rip (about 9-10 seconds or so)... is it best to use FB then? Or is it more interesting to use SR to gain a comfortable 41 seconds timer on it and keep refreshing Rip?
    I know that FB will reset the Rip timer once the target is below 25% HP, but above that, how should I do it?

    I have the feeling it's actually better to simply not use FB before the 25% mark and keep refreshing SR and Rip instead of letting the timers get near expiration, no? Not to mention that if I manage to get a 41 seconds timer on SR, I'll have to use SR less, which will spare energy which will in turn allow me to Shred more.

    By the way, I replaced Mangle with Shred a while ago already. I just have to learn to properly position myself behind the target and move accordingly.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    eh? take mangle off your bars. you're dps will increase dramatically.
    He is dps increase?

    Mangle when you can't shred is still > sitting there auto attacking yes?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Flamebat View Post
    Thanks a lot mates.
    So I got a question about Rip and it's timer.
    Lets say that I have 5 CP on my target and a comfortable remaining time on both SR and Rip (about 9-10 seconds or so)... is it best to use FB then? Or is it more interesting to use SR to gain a comfortable 41 seconds timer on it and keep refreshing Rip?
    I know that FB will reset the Rip timer once the target is below 25% HP, but above that, how should I do it?

    I have the feeling it's actually better to simply not use FB before the 25% mark and keep refreshing SR and Rip instead of letting the timers get near expiration, no? Not to mention that if I manage to get a 41 seconds timer on SR, I'll have to use SR less, which will spare energy which will in turn allow me to Shred more.

    By the way, I replaced Mangle with Shred a while ago already. I just have to learn to properly position myself behind the target and move accordingly.

    To put it bluntly, you are significantly overthinking your problems.

    You are literally doing 1/2 to 1/3 of your possible dps that your gear allows on the fights that I looked at. Improving small things like weaving in FB between rips and SR will do absolutely nothing for your dps and quite often be a dps drop because you're spending time thinking about what you should be doing instead of doing something, anything.

    Three things you can do to increase your damage dramatically:

    1.) Always be attacking something. This seems braindead intuitive but you'd be surprised at how much time you're spending not attacking something, backpeddaling because you took a bit of damage, or doing something else. Not attacking/energy capping is generally the #1 culprit for abysmal damage.

    2.) Keep savage roar and rake up 100% of the time. Self explanatory.

    3.) Use your cooldowns when they come up.

    Do those 3 things properly and even if you never use any finisher but savage roar, your dps will go up by 50% or more.

  20. #20
    Hello guys,
    Sorry for the M M M M M M MONSTERBUMP but I've bene working on my rotation a bit, been paying more attention on keeping Rip and SR up and all. And yesterday, we did Feng The Accursed on the Vaults.
    We had to retry a couple of times... we kept dying in phase 3 when Feng does his Arcane Velocity thing, but my rotation is more or less the same for each try. We gave the next boss a try too, but we failed.
    So, if you can, could you have a look at the Feng battle and see how I did there?
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/dkx06qsdgza013my/

    In case I screwed up the link for some reason again, I'm Snowbat in the guild named "Les Titans" on French server Elune and we did this yesterday 10 Feb.

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