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  1. #1

    Strength vs Haste

    Been seeing a lot of Ret Paladins doing higher dps in other guilds then myself, and I can't figure out why. When I armory them, they stack haste gems except for the JC gems, which they kept as strength. So I ran simcraft multiple times to show that gemming pure haste will lower my dps, except for those two JC gems, which are better kept as Strength. All this time I've been keeping it all as strength gems.

  2. #2
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    What is your question? Are you asking whether to gem haste or strength?

    Paladin and D3 Moderator | MMO-C Guidelines | Signature and avatar art by Dancing Hare

  3. #3
    Yea, should Rets be gemming pure strength or haste, or a mix of both?

  4. #4
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    Only your own sim can tell you. Generally, if you are in t14 gear and beyond, you can safely gem pure haste, while meeting socket bonus. When your sim tells you that 2 Haste > 1 Strength, that's when you gem haste.

    Paladin and D3 Moderator | MMO-C Guidelines | Signature and avatar art by Dancing Hare

  5. #5
    The typical break point where you want to gem Haste>Strength happens around the 480 ilvl or so (Results may vary). The reason not to gem the Haste JC gems is because haste has a 2>1 Ratio to strength, and the Haste JC gems are only a 1.5>1 to Strength (480-320).

  6. #6
    From what I last read, there actually isn't a "safe point" to start gemming haste. It will always depend on the quality of weapon you have compared to the rest of your gear. The only way to be sure of what to gem is to find your stat weights. Gem haste if 2 haste > 1 strength.

  7. #7
    Immortal Soisoisoi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Been seeing a lot of Ret Paladins doing higher dps in other guilds then myself, and I can't figure out why. When I armory them, they stack haste gems except for the JC gems, which they kept as strength. So I ran simcraft multiple times to show that gemming pure haste will lower my dps, except for those two JC gems, which are better kept as Strength. All this time I've been keeping it all as strength gems.
    Not to be "that guy" but have you considered it might not be gear? Have you checked how they play, are they performing better, are their fights quicker and thus their cooldowns are up a bigger percent? It could be a whole number of reasons.


    OT: It depends on YOUR gear. Simcraft can tell you your stat weights, as someone mentioned above.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Been seeing a lot of Ret Paladins doing higher dps in other guilds then myself, and I can't figure out why. When I armory them, they stack haste gems except for the JC gems, which they kept as strength. So I ran simcraft multiple times to show that gemming pure haste will lower my dps, except for those two JC gems, which are better kept as Strength. All this time I've been keeping it all as strength gems.
    I've dedicated a lot of time and money regemming both ways pure Str vs Pure Haste I really feel like Haste pulls ahead but mainly noticed during opening burst or during CD phases. I've spent countless hours simming my character with every piece of gear you can imagine and honestly I felt I came away better with Haste.

    However that being said when I crossed over about 8900-9000 Haste the sims numbers were showing better results moving back to strength.

    TLDR - Who knows it's a confusing world, If you want to min-max 100% sim your character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    I've dedicated a lot of time and money regemming both ways pure Str vs Pure Haste I really feel like Haste pulls ahead but mainly noticed during opening burst or during CD phases. I've spent countless hours simming my character with every piece of gear you can imagine and honestly I felt I came away better with Haste.

    However that being said when I crossed over about 8900-9000 Haste the sims numbers were showing better results moving back to strength.

    TLDR - Who knows it's a confusing world, If you want to min-max 100% sim your character.
    y i also have feel of gemming strength cause i have 9400 haste, just feeels it could more dps, my sim tells me that my stat weigths are strength 3.13,haste 1.42, crit 1.15, and mastery 1.07.. so what u think?

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianus View Post
    y i also have feel of gemming strength cause i have 9400 haste, just feeels it could more dps, my sim tells me that my stat weigths are strength 3.13,haste 1.42, crit 1.15, and mastery 1.07.. so what u think?
    IMO it doesn't make a difference in the end the odds that you have the same raid on every boss to test both ways is truly unlikely. I feel like the 9k range has felt pretty good and as it is for now I'm going to stick with what I have.

    That being said raiding with Buto who has the Heroic Haste trinket from Terrace when it procs I can see him sky rocket past me on the meters. Then when my 2nd procs ocurr on both trinkets I catch him and sometimes pass him. Then we have a back and forth battle. I have 8900 Haste and 15674 Strength. Buto has 8300 Haste and 16362 Strength so it really is hard to put it in numbers as to which which way is better because we bounce back and forth on the meters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  11. #11
    well i switched my prismatic slots(BS and buckle) to strength and run a sim and now my min and Avg DPS are 1 k dps up dunno anything anymore, i'm dumb

  12. #12
    tl;dr. Go for haste obv.

  13. #13
    My OS is ret, I usually only use it for challenge modes. It's got decent gear since no one in my raid is MS str plate. Since gear is scaled down to 463, I should gem for strength anyway, correct?

  14. #14
    Hey, thought I would just give my personal data here, which is not much, but may ease headaches around here.

    I'm 487 ilvl (IG, not on armory due to upgrades) and I have Starshatter LFR with windsong and 4p with legs 496 and the rest 483, my non-set being the pvp shoulders upgraded to 491.
    I gemmed every slot to maximise haste and this, since the very beginning of my gearing-up phase. Simcraft gives me 81802 DPS and stat-weights that favor 1Str>2haste (str:3.3 and haste:1.35)

    So with chardev I made it so that I change every gem slot to maximise Str. Simcraft gave me 82060 DPS, a net gain of ~0.25% and stat weights still favoring 1Str>2haste (Str:3.4 and haste:1.4). So despite the increase of Strength I made, the difference is pretty unlikely to be noticed on parses...

    Just for fun, I ran another simulation with Shin'ka LFR, WITH the +500Str gem and Dancing steel, and all gems to maximise Str, and It simulated 86754 DPS with stat-weights favoring haste again, despite the very little upgrade 8ilvl on the weapon may seem.

    So, frankly, go full haste 'cause the only real difference you shall see in stat-weights and simulation will come from your weapon upgrade as it seems, and then, when you change your weapon, or you will upgrade it, you won't have to change all your gems AGAIN ^^ .
    It may not be the undeniable truth, but try to play around with chardev before changing all your gems on and off, make your own simulation, and if the gain is >1-2%, then it will become interesting to actually make the needed changes.

    Then, if you're not convinced, I totally get it. I just like the smooth gameplay with full haste gear, by reducing GCD and CDs of all my favourite abilities . And if I have said something really out of line and doing something totally wrong in optimising my character, please let me know
    Last edited by metasaigneur; 2012-12-24 at 12:20 AM. Reason: typos

  15. #15
    So after looking at this thread I decided to gem mainly Haste, I think getting as close to 20% Haste is best to smooth out our ability rotations, or at least it feels best to me.
    Though I still find myself having to relearn a lot about Ret since my hiatus from the game.
    With a 490 ilvl I found myself pulling a comfortable 63k target dummy dps. I'll be honest, I have no idea if that is good.
    My armory is in my sig.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddlesnarf View Post
    So after looking at this thread I decided to gem mainly Haste, I think getting as close to 20% Haste is best to smooth out our ability rotations, or at least it feels best to me.
    Though I still find myself having to relearn a lot about Ret since my hiatus from the game.
    With a 490 ilvl I found myself pulling a comfortable 63k target dummy dps. I'll be honest, I have no idea if that is good.
    My armory is in my sig.

    This is a simulation with no flask, no food, no potion and just kings. 10k iterations. elite skill and low latency.

    63k is quite the minimum you should do with bad RNG and elite skill on your side. So make 10-20 samples of 7min fights on dummy if you want to know if RNG was not on your side or if something needs improvement

  17. #17
    63 is about the average when in between cooldowns, but yea, hell if I know what needs to be changed. I did post on the "Fix my dps" thread, but got no help.
    Did a Heroic Brewery today, average dps with the PUG +15% buff was 81k.

    Oh and grats Reqital on finally getting the trinket.
    Last edited by Fiddlesnarf; 2012-12-24 at 08:12 AM.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddlesnarf View Post
    63 is about the average when in between cooldowns, but yea, hell if I know what needs to be changed. I did post on the "Fix my dps" thread, but got no help.
    Did a Heroic Brewery today, average dps with the PUG +15% buff was 81k.

    Oh and grats Reqital on finally getting the trinket.
    Thanks, That haste proc is pretty insane, I wish it was just a little lower and on a 45 sec ICD for lining up with the other trinket but overall it's pretty sweet. On your DPS 63K isn't too far of considering it's a target dummy no debuffs etc. The sim above says no flask/food/pots but doesn't say if he left the debuffs enabled or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddlesnarf View Post
    So after looking at this thread I decided to gem mainly Haste, I think getting as close to 20% Haste is best to smooth out our ability rotations, or at least it feels best to me.
    Though I still find myself having to relearn a lot about Ret since my hiatus from the game.
    With a 490 ilvl I found myself pulling a comfortable 63k target dummy dps. I'll be honest, I have no idea if that is good.
    My armory is in my sig.
    What I gather is that the reason you gem haste is because MOP changed it so that secondary stats are twice as much as primary on gems. So for example a red gem is 160 strength but a yellow gem is 320 haste. Even though strength is higher then haste in value, you do get twice as much haste from the gem.

    As for why I've seen pallies use strength gems for JC is because it isn't double. You can get a 320 strength gem over a 480 haste gem. My mind just reeled at this notion that Blizzard changed how gems work. I'm mentally stuck in Cata still.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    What I gather is that the reason you gem haste is because MOP changed it so that secondary stats are twice as much as primary on gems. So for example a red gem is 160 strength but a yellow gem is 320 haste. Even though strength is higher then haste in value, you do get twice as much haste from the gem.

    As for why I've seen pallies use strength gems for JC is because it isn't double. You can get a 320 strength gem over a 480 haste gem. My mind just reeled at this notion that Blizzard changed how gems work. I'm mentally stuck in Cata still.
    I figure I'll gem Haste to get around 20% then go for Strength, seems to work well for me.

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