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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    I wouldn't hold the use of plague against the Horde. Sylvannas uses plague (among other things) against Garrosh's orders. The Forsaken have always been about doing their own thing. They barely count as Horde and merely use the alliance for protection.

    Garithos set up the Blood Elves to die. When they didn't, he hunted them down and imprisoned them.

    The Alliance isn't all sunshine and daisies. Plenty of the major villains in Warcraft were former Alliance (Medivh, Kel'thuzad, Arthas, Kael'Thas). Don't forget the slavery. Also, this:
    Sylvanas was developing and using the plague when Thrall was warchief.

    Garithos sent the Blood Elves to retake the observatories in Dalaran, and defend them. After they worked with the Naga, he told them dont do it again. They worked with the Naga again, aka treason. He may have been a dick, but the Blood Elves sealed their own fate when they committed treason.

    Orcs were prisoners, not slaves.

    Stormwind screwing over the Defias was because of Onyxia. Varian even tried to help them, but the nobles under Onyxia's influence over rid him.

  2. #62
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Sylvanas was developing and using the plague when Thrall was warchief.

    Garithos sent the Blood Elves to retake the observatories in Dalaran, and defend them. After they worked with the Naga, he told them dont do it again. They worked with the Naga again, aka treason. He may have been a dick, but the Blood Elves sealed their own fate when they committed treason.

    Orcs were prisoners, not slaves.

    Stormwind screwing over the Defias was because of Onyxia. Varian even tried to help them, but the nobles under Onyxia's influence over rid him.
    Oh come on!!! If the Belves hand't accepted the help from the naga, specially the second time when Garithos removed all the heavy artillery and support troops from Kael'thas forces, they would have been murdered without a doubt! Garithos send the Blood elves to a certain death to get rid of them.

  3. #63
    A Forsaken who is no longer loyal to Sylvanas is no longer a Forsaken. He's an Undead. Now, I remember three undead in a camp near Dalaran who had defected from the Forsaken. The mage inquiring their case was surprised to see they could be noble and decent beings. They may even have been accepted in the Alliance then... If some Horde agent didn't kill them first. Also, I doubt Leonid Barthalomew would be thrown out of Stormwind if he went there. As someone else pointed out, the Death Knights would not have been tolerated (not welcomed) if Tirion did not vouch for them. So, there is no discrimination. I fail to see how discrimination could be a war crime anyway. If that was the case, there would be a lot of countries guilty of war crimes.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Oh come on!!! If the Belves hand't accepted the help from the naga, specially the second time when Garithos removed all the heavy artillery and support troops from Kael'thas forces, they would have been murdered without a doubt! Garithos send the Blood elves to a certain death to get rid of them.
    Garithos was fighting a losing war. Why would he send a bunch of soldiers off to die and bolster the enemy? The naga were also hostile, if you remember they had captured a human paladin at Dalaran. Blood Elves were consorting the the enemy, which is treason. You also dont know the circumstances. Maybe Garithos needed those troops more than Kael did.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Alliance attempted genocide against the Orcs by invading Outland. Jaina attempted genocide against Orgrimmar. The Alliance enslaved the Orcs and many still hold the view that they should be exterminated.
    Ok so heres the Orcs story, and why the Alliance want to destroy them.

    An Alien race comes through a dimensional portal opened by a lunatic. This race is large, brutish and armed to the teeth, the first thing they do? Is it speak to the natives? Request to see their leader? Nope, its to slaughter them, killing thousands of humans and threatening the entire species. The aim wasn't to beat back the humans, it was to destroy them. The humans fought back and won against this Alien species, who they then enslaved. Yes, slavery is bad, however they didn't genocide the entire species, as the aliens had planned to.

    So what happens next? Well the Aliens are freed from slavery, and then start looking for a new homeland on this new planet, going so far as to claim it as their RIGHT to land on the planet. Despite the fact that they were the invaders, with no claim to the land they were invading whatsoever. The humans, having lost their alien slaves, now resolve to kill them off, worried that if they don't, they'll come back in full force. Which they do, with allies.

    Speaking of which, the allies the aliens take on have some interesting ideas concerning their right to land. The Tauren commit genocide against Centaurs, the Orcs and Trolls slaughter Quillboars for their land, the Forsaken betray the humans they were allied with to take over Lordaeron. Surprisingly, only the Blood Elves and Goblins didn't oust an entire race from the land they took.

    But going back to the Orcs looking for land, they go to Kalimdor, the Night Elven lands. Start cutting down every tree in sight as though they have a right to, which pisses off the Night Elves. The Night Elves fight back against the invaders, only for the invaders to kill their demigod and wonder "Why are these people attacking us? What'd we do?". The orcs then settle themselves in Quillboar land, call it "Durotar" after their leaders dad, and then start planning on how to take more land that is "rightfully theirs".

    All the while though, the Alliance are the bad guys because "Slavery is bad and they shouldn't discriminate."

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Garithos was fighting a losing war. Why would he send a bunch of soldiers off to die and bolster the enemy? The naga were also hostile, if you remember they had captured a human paladin at Dalaran. Blood Elves were consorting the the enemy, which is treason. You also dont know the circumstances. Maybe Garithos needed those troops more than Kael did.
    Garithos hates all non-human races. Is it really consorting with the enemy when they help you complete your objectives? Like setting up signal towers and fighting off enemy forces?

    Garithos didn't need those troops. He easily crushed the forces he was fighting.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 04:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Skabbo View Post
    Speaking of which, the allies the aliens take on have some interesting ideas concerning their right to land. The Tauren commit genocide against Centaurs, the Orcs and Trolls slaughter Quillboars for their land, the Forsaken betray the humans they were allied with to take over Lordaeron. Surprisingly, only the Blood Elves and Goblins didn't oust an entire race from the land they took.
    The Darkspear Trolls only joined the Horde because an Alliance fleet invaded their islands.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  7. #67
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Garithos sent the Blood Elves to retake the observatories in Dalaran, and defend them. After they worked with the Naga, he told them dont do it again. They worked with the Naga again, aka treason. He may have been a dick, but the Blood Elves sealed their own fate when they committed treason.
    Even Blizzard have come out and said the guy not only sent them on deliberately suicidal missions, but was waiting for a flimsy excuse to commit genocide on them right from the start.

    Why is it okay for Garithos to ally with malevolent undead (including a demon lord), ogres, gnolls and murlocs when the odds are against him, but a heinous crime that warrants death when Kael'thas warily accepts the aid of non-hostile naga? You know, rather than die, lose his post, and give the Scourge more bodies to reanimate?

    To say Garithos was a "dick" is an understatement. The guy was a colossal moron whose bigotry-motivated idiocy cost the Alliance quite a bit down the road.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Darkspear Trolls only joined the Horde because an Alliance fleet invaded their islands.
    Actually no, Thrall saved them from a Sea Witch, the Trolls felt they owed Thrall a debt and hence joined the Horde.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Orcs were prisoners, not slaves.
    The Orcs were definitely enslaved by Humans, as were Ogres.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 04:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Skabbo View Post
    Actually no, Thrall saved them from a Sea Witch, the Trolls felt they owed Thrall a debt and hence joined the Horde.
    Actually, no. Thrall saved the Trolls from the Alliance, then the Sea Witch attacked.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Orcs were definitely enslaved by Humans, as were Ogres.
    Be thankful that the Humans didn't kill all the Orcs, but they should have.

  11. #71
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Garithos was fighting a losing war. Why would he send a bunch of soldiers off to die and bolster the enemy? The naga were also hostile, if you remember they had captured a human paladin at Dalaran. Blood Elves were consorting the the enemy, which is treason. You also dont know the circumstances. Maybe Garithos needed those troops more than Kael did.
    So if it was a loosing war, why did he sent the elves? Garithos was callous, acting with complete disregard for the lives of the blood elves. Now, we can only especulate if it was a set up, but fact tells us that Garithos at the very best just didn't care if they lived or died till that moment, not even how this would impact his army. You could even make the case that he was irresponsible of the resources he had.

    Even of the Naga had captured a paladin, of which Garithos most likely didn't had knowledge (Magroth seemingly was part of an independent organization as he was not part of Garithos forces), They presented themselves as allies, which Garithos blatantly disregarded, yet only weeks after he allied himself with Sylvanas forces to retake Lordaeron (incongruent actions). If he was fighting such a loosing war, he should have considering seeking allies, not turning them away and disposing of his own forces for percieved treason. It's just stupid.

    The only thing I agree with Garithos actions is sentencing the belves to death after their sentence; he should have not kept wasting resources in imprisoment.

    As things are presented, Garithos is an ineffectual and bigoted leader, unfit to lead the remaining Lordaeron forces. In all honesty, he was a huge tool.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Actually, no. Thrall saved the Trolls from the Alliance, then the Sea Witch attacked.
    Dude where are you getting your information from. The Trolls lived on these islands, and were constantly under threat from Murlocs controlled by the Sea Witch. Thrall came along and his people sheltered on these isles. Thrall and his men saved the trolls, but couldn't save their leader Sen'Jin. They and the Trolls then fled the isles, the Darkspear then settled on the Echo Isles. Vol'jin, the new leader, pledged alliegance to the Horde as gratitude. The Alliance played no role in this.

  13. #73
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skabbo View Post
    Dude where are you getting your information from. The Trolls lived on these islands, and were constantly under threat from Murlocs controlled by the Sea Witch. Thrall came along and his people sheltered on these isles. Thrall and his men saved the trolls, but couldn't save their leader Sen'Jin. They and the Trolls then fled the isles, the Darkspear then settled on the Echo Isles. Vol'jin, the new leader, pledged alliegance to the Horde as gratitude. The Alliance played no role in this.
    There was a small contingent of alliance (maybe Kul tiras?) on the Darkspear isles when Thrall arrived there. They did fought alliance, but it seemed more like a peripheral threat.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Skabbo View Post
    Dude where are you getting your information from. The Trolls lived on these islands, and were constantly under threat from Murlocs controlled by the Sea Witch. Thrall came along and his people sheltered on these isles. Thrall and his men saved the trolls, but couldn't save their leader Sen'Jin. They and the Trolls then fled the isles, the Darkspear then settled on the Echo Isles. Vol'jin, the new leader, pledged alliegance to the Horde as gratitude. The Alliance played no role in this.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  15. #75
    Uh huh, thats great and all, but thats a small outpost of humans. Not an invading army, thats not the reason the Trolls ultimately joined the horde.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Skabbo View Post
    Uh huh, thats great and all, but thats a small outpost of humans. Not an invading army, thats not the reason the Trolls ultimately joined the horde.
    Islands used to exclusively belong to the Trolls. Alliance invade and construct settlements while continuously harassing and pushing back the Trolls. Sen'jin and Thrall form an alliance to expel the Alliance from the island. They were allied before the Sea Witch even showed up.

    EDIT: Also, Sen'jin's vision of Thrall was for him to save them.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-01-06 at 12:57 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Islands used to exclusively belong to the Trolls. Alliance invade and construct settlements while continuously harassing and pushing back the Trolls. Sen'jin and Thrall form an alliance to expel the Alliance from the island. They were allied before the Sea Witch even showed up.
    Yes, allied against a small contingent of humans, not really an invading alliance army. A threat that the Trolls probably could've dealt with on their own. The Sea Witch however would have seen the Darkspear all dead in a slaughter.

    Also Allied =/= Part of the Horde, for a little while the Night Elves, Orcs and Humans were Allied but they certainly weren't all a part of the same faction. Had the Sea Witch not attacked, its possible Thrall would've been on his way and the Trolls would've enjoyed staying on their island.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Skabbo View Post
    Yes, allied against a small contingent of humans, not really an invading alliance army. A threat that the Trolls probably could've dealt with on their own. The Sea Witch however would have seen the Darkspear all dead in a slaughter.

    Also Allied =/= Part of the Horde, for a little while the Night Elves, Orcs and Humans were Allied but they certainly weren't all a part of the same faction. Had the Sea Witch not attacked, its possible Thrall would've been on his way and the Trolls would've enjoyed staying on their island.
    Nope. If the Trolls could have handled it themselves, they would have already. The Alliance had been there for a while.

    Sen'Jin says, "The vision told me you would lead my people off this island."
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  19. #79
    The Ebon Blade are Tirion Fordring™ approved, and Varian makes it quite clear that he would have killed the player in a split second if it weren't for Tirion Fordring's recommendation. The Forsaken are not so approved and, quite frankly, are much less picky about who they hurt. The Ebon Blade are quite specific about directing all that vile fury at those who deserve it, whereas the Forsaken throw plague at anything that isn't convenient. Also, the Forsaken outright denied the Alliance Lordaeron, despite agreeing to hand it over to Garithos. Despite Garithos being an outright prick that deserved an arrow in the brain, that doesn't make it any less of a strike against the Alliance as a whole. They started it by taking Lordaeron for themselves (and proceeding to kill any farmers that remained!)

    Where Orcs are concerned - what would YOU do with demon-raging child-murderers that invaded your world? You defeat them, then what? Hope they just behave? Offer them tea and biscuits? It's surprising that they just didn't execute them all.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Nope. If the Trolls could have handled it themselves, they would have already. The Alliance had been there for a while.

    Sen'Jin says, "The vision told me you would lead my people off this island."
    Sen'Jin's vision and the Alliance presence has very little to do with each other. Especially considering its the Sea Witch that sees the islands rendered uninhabitable by the trolls. Not the Alliance.

    So again, the Alliance aren't the reason the Trolls joined the Horde.

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