Alliance Major War Crime is Discrimination!

[Aquamonkey]

Sen'Jin's vision and the Alliance presence has very little to do with each other. Especially considering its the Sea Witch that sees the islands rendered uninhabitable by the trolls. Not the Alliance.

So again, the Alliance aren't the reason the Trolls joined the Horde.

Vision shows future alliance between Trolls and Orcs. First joint mission is to fight the Alliance invaders.

If you want to be so obtuse as to not admit that Alliance aggression had a key role in this, that's your business. Facts speak for themselves.

[Trassk]

I love how your video debunks anyones bs about how Thrall never tried to fight the alliance. He took the battle to them and brought the trolls to his side.

[McNeil]

I'd love to see some humans & forsaken conflicts in the future, they were once humans who worked together after all

[Totle]

Post WotLK?

The people die. They are risen to Undeath by Sylvanas. To whom do you expect they would pledge their loyalty?

[Immitis]

the reason why "new" forasken arent let in is because apparently when someone is raised from the dead most of the time for the first couple hours they are in a blind fit of rage and do whatever the person that raised them said.

imagine you wake up after blacking out you're a zombie and you just ate a bunch of your buddies because elf girl said so. you gonna find it that easy to convince your other friends you aint an evil zombie?

plus death knights had tirion to vouch for them.

however if you want a real reason its because if the forsaken were alliance the horde would have had no major presence on the eastern kingdoms so in vanilla they made them horde and all future reasons is gameplay trumps lore ins some cases

[blackblade]

Let me get this straight, they accept Death Knights into the Alliance, but refuse the Forsaken? Now I am not talking about the ones loyal to the Undercity, but instead the ones post Wotlk.

I am sure I am missing something, but a lot of people tend to forget that just because Death Knights look like us, in lore THEY ARE DEAD! Anyone care to clear this up?

At the time when the forsaken and the alliance were in talks of joining forces (ever so short talks, mind you.) Arthas and the scourge were but a looming threat, The alliance felt as though the forsaken were a blight upon their land and abominations of nature.

As the lich king's forces swept through the land, and the remnants of Ebon Hold came to Stormwind, Enemy of my Enemy is a friend indeed.


Just because they were opposed to employing the Forsaken at one point in time, does not mean they should be opposed to employing the death knights at a different point in time, with different circumstances.

[Eats Compost]

the reason why "new" forasken arent let in is because apparently when someone is raised from the dead most of the time for the first couple hours they are in a blind fit of rage and do whatever the person that raised them said.

imagine you wake up after blacking out you're a zombie and you just ate a bunch of your buddies because elf girl said so. you gonna find it that easy to convince your other friends you aint an evil zombie?

It's outright contradictory for the Forsaken to manipulate the newly-risen like that and then turn around and say "b-b-b-but free will!'. The Forsaken are terribly written because Blizzard seems to want to make them out to have some redeeming feature, but they're just as rotten as the Scourge.

It's especially bad because BC actually made some headway on redeeming Sylvanas' character a bit, but they went and fucked it up in WotLK and made it appallingly worse in Cata.

[Falrinn]

the reason why "new" forasken arent let in is because apparently when someone is raised from the dead most of the time for the first couple hours they are in a blind fit of rage and do whatever the person that raised them said.

imagine you wake up after blacking out you're a zombie and you just ate a bunch of your buddies because elf girl said so. you gonna find it that easy to convince your other friends you aint an evil zombie?

plus death knights had tirion to vouch for them.

however if you want a real reason its because if the forsaken were alliance the horde would have had no major presence on the eastern kingdoms so in vanilla they made them horde and all future reasons is gameplay trumps lore ins some cases

It goes beyond that. In WC3:TFT the Forsaken backstab Garithos, wiping out most (if not all) of his army after they outlive their immediate usefulness. While Garithos was certainly a jerk, and it was questionable how long he would be willing to keep up his end of the bargain, he was still an official representative of the Alliance. The fact that their first interaction with the Alliance was to negotiate in bad faith and then wipe out what was possibly the most powerful Alliance army still in Lordaeron is going to reflect poorly on how they appear to the rest of the Alliance.

The Death Knights on the other hand did nothing but kill Scourge after they broke free from the Lich King, and had Tirion to vouch for them. And while I'm sure the rank and file aren't necessarily happy about the presence of Death Knights, for the most part they are willing to accept the decision of their leaders.

[Aquamonkey]

It goes beyond that. In WC3:TFT the Forsaken backstab Garithos, wiping out most (if not all) of his army after they outlive their immediate usefulness. While Garithos was certainly a jerk, and it was questionable how long he would be willing to keep up his end of the bargain, he was still an official representative of the Alliance. The fact that their first interaction with the Alliance was to negotiate in bad faith and then wipe out what was possibly the most powerful Alliance army still in Lordaeron is going to reflect poorly on how they appear to the rest of the Alliance.

The Death Knights on the other hand did nothing but kill Scourge after they broke free from the Lich King, and had Tirion to vouch for them. And while I'm sure the rank and file aren't necessarily happy about the presence of Death Knights, for the most part they are willing to accept the decision of their leaders.

Different Alliance. Not good for cred in any case.

[delus]

Jaina attempted genocide against Orgrimmar.

"Attempted" means tried and failed. She did not do that she changed her mind. By that logic she would be savior of the orcs because she stopped herself at the stage of preperation.

[Aquamonkey]

"Attempted" means tried and failed. She did not do that she changed her mind. By that logic she would be savior of the orcs because she stopped herself.

She did try and fail. Thrall stopped her tsunami with wind spirits. She was about to kill Thrall when Kalec showed up.

[Deleted]

the reason why "new" forasken arent let in is because apparently when someone is raised from the dead most of the time for the first couple hours they are in a blind fit of rage and do whatever the person that raised them said.

imagine you wake up after blacking out you're a zombie and you just ate a bunch of your buddies because elf girl said so. you gonna find it that easy to convince your other friends you aint an evil zombie?

plus death knights had tirion to vouch for them.

the bolded part pretty much counts for DK's also. they wiped out an entire human scarlet crusade settlement. just because tirion said: nah these guys be nice, is why they're accepted.
its really really bad writing on blizzard there part.

[delus]

She did try and fail. Thrall stopped her tsunami with wind spirits. She was about to kill Thrall when Kalec showed up.

No she didn't. Thrall and Kalec made her change her mind. That was all there was to it. She didn't attempt anything because she changed her mind.

[Deleted]

Oh come on!!! If the Belves hand't accepted the help from the naga, specially the second time when Garithos removed all the heavy artillery and support troops from Kael'thas forces, they would have been murdered without a doubt! Garithos send the Blood elves to a certain death to get rid of them.

The Belves were keeping his back free of Scourge, if they had been overrun he'd been the next on the list now facing two armies advancing from both sides on him. He didn't try to make them die on purpose, he was either supremly incompetent or did underestimate the numbers of the scourge forces advancing upon the Belves.

[Aquamonkey]

No she didn't. Thrall and Kalec made her change her mind. That was all there was to it. She didn't attempt anything because she changed her mind.

She broke into Dalaran and stole books on the Focusing Iris. She summoned a ton of water elementals, fused them into a giant tsunami, then launched it at Orgrimmar. Thrall came, halted the tsunami with air spirits, and tried to talk her down. Jaina attacks him. Thrall refuses to fight back. She gathers energy for an attack to kill Thrall. Kalec comes and talks her down.

She was fully committed to genocide and murdering her friend. She didn't just change her mind. She stopped due to external intervention.

[delus]

She broke into Dalaran and stole books on the Focusing Iris. She summoned a ton of water elementals, fused them into a giant tsunami, then launched it at Orgrimmar. Thrall came, halted the tsunami with air spirits, and tried to talk her down. Jaina attacks him. Thrall refuses to fight back. She gathers energy for an attack to kill Thrall. Kalec comes and talks her down.

She was fully committed to genocide and murdering her friend. She didn't just change her mind. She stopped due to external intervention.

No, she wasn't. She was talked down but that does not count as an attempt since she wasn't stopped. Thrall was no match against her with the power of the iris.

[Deleted]

She was fully committed to genocide and murdering her friend. She didn't just change her mind. She stopped due to external intervention.

The correct phrase would be "she changed her mind due to external intervention". Just like delus pointed out.

If I plan to rob a bank, all the way up to the door, but a friend of mine convince me not to, it doesn't make me a bank robber.

[DieFichte]

Speaking of which, the allies the aliens take on have some interesting ideas concerning their right to land. The Tauren commit genocide against Centaurs, the Orcs and Trolls slaughter Quillboars for their land, the Forsaken betray the humans they were allied with to take over Lordaeron. Surprisingly, only the Blood Elves and Goblins didn't oust an entire race from the land they took.

Sure the Blood Elves did, they were just called Highelves back then, and last time I checked, the Humans were involved in that too, for the trade of Magic, and if memory serves me correct, that trade went horribly on Azeroth.

[Aquamonkey]

No, she wasn't. She was talked down but that does not count as an attempt since she wasn't stopped. Thrall was no match against her with the power of the iris.

Attempt 1: to make an effort to do, accomplish, solve, or effect <attempted to swim the swollen river>

Jaina attempted genocide and murder. Thrall was plenty match enough to stop her empowered tsunami. He chose not to fight her.

[delus]

The correct phrase would be "she changed her mind due to external intervention". Just like delus pointed out.

If I plan to rob a bank, all the way up to the door, but a friend of mine convince me not to, it doesn't make me a bank robber.

Nor does that make you guilty of attempted robbery.