Alliance Major War Crime is Discrimination!

[Scummer]

just saying, but forsaken arent a race, they're a faction of a classification of a race, that being undead humans/elves called forsaken, just one of my pet peeves =P

It was more a slip of the tongue (keyboard) .

also how would have Varian been aware or the Forsakens deceit? no one from SW was sent to Lordaeron, and Sylvanas killed Garrys troops

Oh there would have been some survivors, notably the Dwarves. There's always that one that get's away!
Even then having a Dreadlord as a second in command would be enough to refute the idea of friendship. They're know as a treacherous race and look what wound up happening in the end.

[Chirri]

I thought Forsaken raised were expected to swear loyalty to Sylvanas or get put back in the ground. Possibly I heard wrong. Many Forsaken players as well as Forsaken NPCs seem to have an extreme loyalty toward their Banshee Queen.

I'd get how, very shortly after the original plague, the living Humans would originally be terrified and distrustful of any Forsaken they encountered. That'd be like a zombie apocalypse hitting us, and then suddenly months (years?) later a group of them arrives acting all friendly. That's not going to end well for those hopeful zombies, and how will it reflect upon the rest of the living from the perspective of the zombie leadership? The living can't tell them apart.

But I really do think I've read from a variety of sources that the Forsaken are raised and find themselves with very different views of, shall we say, reality? I'm not sure how many are fanciful fictions and how many are based on Blizzard's (ever shifting) lore, though.

[Stormdash]

It was a plot hole that leapt out to me pretty much the instant I made an Alliance DK and went to see Varian. There's really no way to paper it over. There's no distinction one can make between the DKs and the Forsaken that holds up to any real scrutiny. The result is that the Alliance is just hypocritical on the subject. That does happen sometimes, so if anybody's only objection to accepting the Alliance's hypocrisy on it is that it means the Alliance isn't perfect... tough.

[Primaliron]

You forget the most important difference between DKs and forsaken. DKs haven't been rotting in the ground before being resurrected.

Alliance undead entry rules: Your corpse must be pretty, but not High/Blood Elven pretty.

[Aquamonkey]

Contrast to the Forsaken, who (by and large) have never expressed any interest in rejoining the Alliance at all. The only non-Undercity-affiliated Forsaken have gone to the Argent Crusade or remained independent.

After they took over Lordaeron, Silvannas sent emissaries to all the factions, seeking allies. Only the Tauren responded favorably.

Step 4: Wrathgate. Forsaken bomb the Wrathgate battle ground with a special weaponized plague, and bomb scourge and allies indiscriminately. The battle cry, "Death to the Scourge and death to the living!" is direct evidence that this indiscriminate bombing of both sides was NOT an accident. Sylvanas claims that this was done by rogue agents, but there is a LOT of evidence to the contrary. Even so, it shows that the the Forsaken are NOT to be trusted.

-----1) Evidence: Producing a very specific type of plague requires a LOT of resources -- requiring time, money, personnel, test subjects, places to develop the plague and test subjects. As the leader of the Forsaken, it would have been impossible for Sylvanas to not notice this.

-----2) Evidence: Sylvanas herself was subsidizing and ordering the Royal Apothecary Society to develop a plague weapon. Old Vanilla quests in Silverpine, Tarren Mill, and newer quests in Howling Fjord support this.

-----3) Even if the Alliance have no knowledge of the old world quests, the quests in Howling Fjord have you actually bomb some of the towns in that zone to eliminate the plague carts. The Alliance SEE the Forsaken making plague. High-ranking Apothecaries and officials of the Forsaken are in these bases and have a line of communication back to Sylvanas. She knows they're making plague.

This means that the Forsaken are definitely not to be trusted. In the mean time, the death knights, such as Thaurissian, Darion Mograine and his Ebon Knights are attacking the Lich King and providing assistance, NOT indiscriminately slaughtering allies.

It was never a secret that Sylvannas was developing plague weapons (lorewise). What she didn't authorize, was the use of plague at Wrathgate. Which is why there was the whole mini-event of retaking Undercity.

Why the hell would the Alliance welcome the Forsaken again? I'm pretty damn surprised that even the Horde didn't kick them out.

Horde needs Forsaken for their foothold in EK.

[Justignoreme]

Arthas created the first Banshee, AKA Sylvannas. His necromancers, learning of this, then started making Banshees from the souls of fallen Elves.

Wrong, Banshees are a tormented soul of any elven woman dying a horrible death. Many Banshees were Night Elves slain brutally during the War of Ancients. In fact every Banshee in Kalimdor is a result of this.

Rejecting the Forsaken is not a War Crime. Bombing a school full of druid students is a war crime.

[Aquamonkey]

Wrong, Banshees are a tormented soul of any elven woman dying a horrible death. Many Banshees were Night Elves slain brutally during the War of Ancients. In fact every Banshee in Kalimdor is a result of this.

Rejecting the Forsaken is not a War Crime. Bombing a school full of druid students is a war crime.

Is it a war crime to bomb a military academy?

[Justignoreme]

Is it a war crime to bomb a military academy?

Killing children has no excuse short of the kid pointing a loaded weapon at you. A Druid School =/= Military academy anyways.
Where are you going with this anyways?

[Aquamonkey]

Killing children has no excuse short of the kid pointing a loaded weapon at you. A Druid School =/= Military academy anyways.
Where are you going with this anyways?

I wasn't necessarily implying that the druid school was a military academy. It was more a point of curiosity.

Training to be a druid happens in adulthood (for PCs at least). These druids are combatants.

[Justignoreme]

I wasn't necessarily implying that the druid school was a military academy. It was more a point of curiosity.

Training to be a druid happens in adulthood (for PCs at least). These druids are combatants.

Ya, they *can be* and as you've seen what they fight are threats to the world overall. The school was not faction linked since there were tauren attending as well.

[apepi]

Garithos was freed from mind control by Sylvannas. Plus he was a racist.

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 01:36 AM ----------


Sylvannas sent emissaries to all the other factions. Only the Tauren responded kindly hoping to redeem the Forsaken. It was the Tauren who convinced the Horde to take them in.

Aren't taurens racist to undead? Some of the are trying to 'cure' them.

The Alliance didn't exactly like having death knights, though. Varian threatens to make the player a stain on the floor when you meet him, and that only a vouch from the greatest paladin alive had saved your life. He very reluctantly agrees to let you help the Alliance down the Lich King. Not to mention the extremely hostile reaction the city denizens give you before Varian/Thrall grant you their tolerance...

Contrast to the Forsaken, who (by and large) have never expressed any interest in rejoining the Alliance at all. The only non-Undercity-affiliated Forsaken have gone to the Argent Crusade or remained independent.

I beleive some of them tried to go back and were shunned by them.

Obviously you haven't played WC3...
http://www.wowpedia.org/A_New_Power_in_Lordaeron

So the Alliance and Forsaken team up to take back Lordaeron which they agree will go to the Alliance when all is done. Ofcourse by the end Sylvanas doesn't hold her word and kills the Human survivors and then appoints a Dreadlord as her second in command of which seemed to be quite high up in the Burning Legion and is part of a race know for their treachery.

So after killing Lordaeron's survivors and appointing a Dreadlords as their second in command, why should the Alliance trust them?
It's not racism it's going by what they've the moment they had free will.

Then in modern WoW we have their current activities of plague, necromancy and attempts to slaughter everybody in their path without mercy meaning that their current relations can only be worse again because of the Forsaken.

Technically the undead are Lordaeron's survivors. Only a few did not get he plague, the alliance that tried to take back Lordaeron I believe were from other places were humans lived. So really it was the undead's to take anyways.

[kage]

Discrimination is bad ,but by itself not a war crime.

[PsychoBone]

I don't get it? Why do you assume there is discrimination at all?

There has never been any indication from in game story lines or books that any Forsaken wanting to get into the Alliance tried but were refused. For all we know they WOULD be accepted into the Alliance if they just went up and knocked on the front door and asked.

[Kaleredar]

Horde:
Bombed a camp full of students
Assaulted a neutral dragon aspect's forces to apprehend a dangerous artifact
Vaporized Theramore
Used biological warfare on multiple fronts, took prisoners to be used as experiments
Utilized neutral forces to smuggle another incredibly dangerous artifact out of safe keeping


Alliance:
Didn't let the forsaken come to their tea party
Garithos was mean to kael'thas

Obviously, the Alliance has committed unforgivable treachery here.

[TheDangerZone]

Yeah, Forsaken are their fallen comrades and family members who were recently released from slavery. DKs are their fallen comrades and family members who were recently released from slavery.

As Lana Kane would say: Noooooooooope.

Seriously, nope. Forsaken presented themselves as an autonomous organization. They wished to be viewed as equals, with rights. The alliance declined. Forsaken want to forge their own realm, their own place in the world.

Death Knights, once free, pledge themselves to serve the alliance. They want to be used, to be useful in order to fulfill their redemption.

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 11:54 PM ----------

Horde:
Bombed a camp full of students
Assaulted a neutral dragon aspect's forces to apprehend a dangerous artifact
Vaporized Theramore
Used biological warfare on multiple fronts, took prisoners to be used as experiments
Utilized neutral forces to smuggle another incredibly dangerous artifact out of safe keeping


Alliance:
Didn't let the forsaken come to their tea party
Garithos was mean to kael'thas

Obviously, the Alliance has committed unforgivable treachery here.

This is what I like to call biased argumentation.

Because sure, genocide to a race on the verge of extinction is "meanness".

Garithos sentencing all of Kael'thas forces to death = Cady giving Regina swedish protein bars passing them as diet bars.

MEAN

[Aquamonkey]

Horde:
Bombed a camp full of students
Assaulted a neutral dragon aspect's forces to apprehend a dangerous artifact
Vaporized Theramore
Used biological warfare on multiple fronts, took prisoners to be used as experiments
Utilized neutral forces to smuggle another incredibly dangerous artifact out of safe keeping


Alliance:
Didn't let the forsaken come to their tea party
Garithos was mean to kael'thas

Obviously, the Alliance has committed unforgivable treachery here.

I wouldn't hold the use of plague against the Horde. Sylvannas uses plague (among other things) against Garrosh's orders. The Forsaken have always been about doing their own thing. They barely count as Horde and merely use the alliance for protection.

Garithos set up the Blood Elves to die. When they didn't, he hunted them down and imprisoned them.

The Alliance isn't all sunshine and daisies. Plenty of the major villains in Warcraft were former Alliance (Medivh, Kel'thuzad, Arthas, Kael'Thas). Don't forget the slavery. Also, this:

[Sivick]

Let me get this straight, they accept Death Knights into the Alliance, but refuse the Forsaken? Now I am not talking about the ones loyal to the Undercity, but instead the ones post Wotlk.

I am sure I am missing something, but a lot of people tend to forget that just because Death Knights look like us, in lore THEY ARE DEAD! Anyone care to clear this up?

So the alliance major war crime is discrimination... and that means the horde's major war crime is GENOCIDE. Who is evil here?

Besides, the Death knights proved their loyalty in battle. I seem to remember the forsaken making brand new undead out of the soldiers they just slaughtered.... Hmmmmm...

[Aquamonkey]

So the alliance major war crime is discrimination... and that means the horde's major war crime is GENOCIDE. Who is evil here?

The Alliance attempted genocide against the Orcs by invading Outland. Jaina attempted genocide against Orgrimmar. The Alliance enslaved the Orcs and many still hold the view that they should be exterminated.

[Deleted]

Deathknights, like Warlocks, are frowned upon. Thassarian at the end of the quests in Borean Tundra says that he has done his part fighting for the king and that he's gonna pursue his own path from then on. He assumes they've send him there on that, what he callls suicide mission, in the hopes of getting rid of him. For what reason he apparently returned to fight for the Alliance, I don't know. I don't think the Alliance or the Horde really cared much about the Death Knights.

I guess the reason they took them in was because Tirion vouched for them. Would a bunch of Death Knights just appear at the city gates and ask to join, they would most likely get hunted out of the city.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The Alliance attempted genocide against the Orcs by invading Outland. Jaina attempted genocide against Orgrimmar. The Alliance enslaved the Orcs and many still hold the view that they should be exterminated.

They didn't attempt genocide in Outland. That's a new made up one. Jaina almost did it but didn't *Gasp*. Love how we say we enslaved them, there was no other option. Stop vilifying us.