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  1. #21
    Mechagnome khatsoo's Avatar
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    Someone would find a way of exploiting PVE talents for PVP or the other way round. And also, PVE and PVP are mixed in a not-instanced-world, you never know what you are up to and the tech wouldn't work in any way.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillemus View Post
    Only the very top tier guilds should feel the need to "fire" any rogue who doesn't min/max every single thing. 2 things, combat is still viable on single target as you get progression and I until a ton of combat rogues gets brought in because it's needed in order to get the kill, I don't see why you are forced to go combat if you are still competitive on dps with your pier classes.
    Everyone in a semi-serious raiding team is expected to play their biggest strengths on a fight-to-fight basis. If I didn't go assassination you should question why...

    Unfortunately that just means everyone goes for the top spec. This could easily be solved if blizzard implemented some balancing, why has it left combat that far behind for this tier in single target? It's 100% there fault for not balancing it.

    As for the gems and enchants, etc. I don't mind the idea of them and for healers it's especially dynamic. But why charge? Why penalize people for experimenting?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Everyone in a semi-serious raiding team is expected to play their biggest strengths on a fight-to-fight basis. If I didn't go assassination you should question why...

    Unfortunately that just means everyone goes for the top spec. This could easily be solved if blizzard implemented some balancing, why has it left combat that far behind for this tier in single target? It's 100% there fault for not balancing it.
    Ok, I'm currently ilvl 486 on my Rogue (Combat), currently if I go assass and I reforge and regem everything I get an increase in dps from 79500 to 83000 that's 3.5 k dps on an OPTIMAL rotation, which I'm not likely going to hit on a steady basis, and the margin can only be said to get closer as we get lower. That's not far behind, that's actually pretty damn balanced, the only unbalanced thing is Blade flurry, with this margin you are in no way forced to play a certain spec, except on cleave fights.
    What I also haven't mentioned here is that I actually haven't even had the luck to replace my daggers, let alone upgrade them to a proper tier, this is pure theory, and in addition I have no set bonuses due to being somewhat unlucky and if you assume that I had a bit more luck (Been running lfr every week since the release using bonus rolls on almost every boss capable of dropping tier loot with no luck) I would have 4 set bonus which brings combat up to only 1k dps behind Assass on perfect rotations. And combat still scales better with gear so combat is surpassing Assass very soon in terms of single target dps as well, so tell me more about how combat is left far behind?

    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    As for the gems and enchants, etc. I don't mind the idea of them and for healers it's especially dynamic. But why charge? Why penalize people for experimenting?
    Gems and enchants still cost money, and by your logic they should be free yes?
    How did experimentation come into this? This was about being forced to change specs often because Blizzard is forcing you to have two specs for raiding and therefore the cost of changing specs all the time for PvP as well. But regardless, if it's for experimenting (which happens rarely) it shouldn't really be a a problem should it, I mean, if we remove the cost because of experimenting, it will just make it free for those who do it to optimize their dps and that seems a bit odd.
    Now as I said before to bring it back on track, you wanted it for free so you could be optimal in raids and pvp on the side without having to pay extra, it's all about that extra mile that people are willing to go, for you that extra mile is paying to have 2 PvE specs instead of a pvp and pve spec for that little extra bonus on certain fights.
    Last edited by Lillemus; 2013-01-06 at 01:35 PM.

  4. #24
    This:
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    And make balancing even 100% harder, great idea.
    Because of This:
    Quote Originally Posted by khatsoo View Post
    Someone would find a way of exploiting PVE talents for PVP or the other way round. And also, PVE and PVP are mixed in a not-instanced-world, you never know what you are up to and the tech wouldn't work in any way.
    Garth Brooks convinced me it's not living if I stand outside the fire
    Impact of Stat Squish on Heirloom Weapons

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by chrth View Post
    This:


    Because of This:
    how should this be exploitable if pve talents do less damage on players then pvp talents and the other way around on mobs ? also guys plz stay on topic we are discussing seperation of pvp and pve not about speccing certain specs for certain fights
    Last edited by Koji2k11; 2013-01-06 at 02:18 PM.
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    how should this be exploitable if pve talents do less damage on players then pvp talents and the other way around on mobs ? also guys plz stay on topic we are discussing seperation of pvp and pve not about speccing certain specs for certain fights
    But that's the thing, it's getting closer to 2 different games now, instead of feeling like 1 game, which is what they want.

  7. #27
    the point is you cant keep 2 things balanced without hurting one of them the only solution would be seperation i've been telling this the whole time
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillemus View Post
    Ok, I'm currently ilvl 486 on my Rogue (Combat), currently if I go assass and I reforge and regem everything I get an increase in dps from 79500 to 83000 that's 3.5 k dps on an OPTIMAL rotation, which I'm not likely going to hit on a steady basis, and the margin can only be said to get closer as we get lower. That's not far behind, that's actually pretty damn balanced, the only unbalanced thing is Blade flurry, with this margin you are in no way forced to play a certain spec, except on cleave fights.
    What I also haven't mentioned here is that I actually haven't even had the luck to replace my daggers, let alone upgrade them to a proper tier, this is pure theory, and in addition I have no set bonuses due to being somewhat unlucky and if you assume that I had a bit more luck (Been running lfr every week since the release using bonus rolls on almost every boss capable of dropping tier loot with no luck) I would have 4 set bonus which brings combat up to only 1k dps behind Assass on perfect rotations. And combat still scales better with gear so combat is surpassing Assass very soon in terms of single target dps as well, so tell me more about how combat is left far behind?



    Gems and enchants still cost money, and by your logic they should be free yes?
    How did experimentation come into this? This was about being forced to change specs often because Blizzard is forcing you to have two specs for raiding and therefore the cost of changing specs all the time for PvP as well. But regardless, if it's for experimenting (which happens rarely) it shouldn't really be a a problem should it, I mean, if we remove the cost because of experimenting, it will just make it free for those who do it to optimize their dps and that seems a bit odd.
    Now as I said before to bring it back on track, you wanted it for free so you could be optimal in raids and pvp on the side without having to pay extra, it's all about that extra mile that people are willing to go, for you that extra mile is paying to have 2 PvE specs instead of a pvp and pve spec for that little extra bonus on certain fights.
    Stop stop stop. When I said "etc" I was referring to reforges; I was focused on why reforges cost money. I understand gems and enchants.

    As for ass/combat: The difference is still enough for it to matter, looking at worldoflogs shows about 10% difference in DPS.

    I don't understand the point about the extra mile. I have a bit of money, I can pay for the reforges but I see absolutely no reason why not to include 2 extra slots. You haven't changed the talents, the balancing or anything similar; you are simply encouraging players to commit to both without charging them each time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    the point is you cant keep 2 things balanced without hurting one of them the only solution would be seperation i've been telling this the whole time
    This is 100% true, it's impossible to get perfect balancing short of whacking on some pvp power scaling on every move that, obviously, applies to PVP only.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    the point is you cant keep 2 things balanced without hurting one of them the only solution would be seperation i've been telling this the whole time
    And what we're telling you is that Blizzard would never go for this, as it will become 2 games instead of one then, completely different talents, completely different abilities etc. And even though you may have called it, Blizzard is not ready to pronounce World PvP dead yet.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 06:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Stop stop stop. When I said "etc" I was referring to reforges; I was focused on why reforges cost money. I understand gems and enchants.
    I don't understand the point about the extra mile. I have a bit of money, I can pay for the reforges but I see absolutely no reason why not to include 2 extra slots. You haven't changed the talents, the balancing or anything similar; you are simply encouraging players to commit to both without charging them each time.
    But that's the thing, for some people the optimizing they do is gems and enchants, for you it's reforging and talent swapping. It's all about what level you play at, you should be happy that there is something extra you can do that separates you from other players.

    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    As for ass/combat: The difference is still enough for it to matter, looking at worldoflogs shows about 10% difference in DPS.
    That's just not true, a quick check of hc logs for HoF and normal ToES (both 25man) shows combat ahead in 4/6 and in ToES it's very even on 2 and then 1/1, hardly evidence for you being forced into a certain spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    This is 100% true, it's impossible to get perfect balancing short of whacking on some pvp power scaling on every move that, obviously, applies to PVP only.
    It's impossible to get perfect balance no matter what.
    Last edited by Lillemus; 2013-01-06 at 05:30 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    how should this be exploitable if pve talents do less damage on players then pvp talents and the other way around on mobs ? also guys plz stay on topic we are discussing seperation of pvp and pve not about speccing certain specs for certain fights
    Last season Hunters needed 2T13 in their PVP gear for the focus regen. The game isn't just about damage numbers.
    Garth Brooks convinced me it's not living if I stand outside the fire
    Impact of Stat Squish on Heirloom Weapons

  11. #31
    Drop the PvE "top spec" argument. It's reaching FAR off topic.

    On topic: the biggest issue with "separating" PvE and PvP, apart from "Blizzard doesn't want to" is that the two always intersect at least a bit. Conceptually I think Alterac Valley was miles ahead of everything else at the time, with the "actual war concept" (implementation could've used work, of course), but the interplay between PC and NPC was completely mixed. Even taking out that intention, and assuming we had 2 separate SETS of talents, one of which was nerfed for PvE and one nerfed for PvP, world PvP cuts the legs out of the concept.

    @Koji2k11 - it's true that using 1 platform to support both PvE and PvP is difficult, and Blizzard knows this... and their priority is, has been, and has been stated to continue, that they'll do the best they can with PvP, but only while keeping PvE as the final goal. Warcraft's design has been as a PvE game with PvP in the fringes, and mechanically, it's easy to see how we got where we are now. There are plenty of games I hear people recommend for more mechanically interesting/compelling PvP than WoW, but WoW has it all :P.

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