Patriotism and the Nation-State

[Laize]

No, the most stable systems are multipolar ones in which a balance of power operates. That, and the US simply doesn't have the means necessary to sustain itself as the sole hyperpower anymore.

You cannot really believe that.

At every point in world history (Especially modern), the most peaceful times have been when one superpower operated a hegemonic influence in its immediate area.

Rome, the Mongol Empire, the British empire and now, the United States. Superpowers one and all that operated with practical carte blanche and oversaw the most prosperous and peaceful (Yes, peaceful. Compare the wars seen prior to the British Empire such as the 100 years war, War of Scottish Independence and the War of the Roses with the relatively tame French-Indian War and War of 1812) times in history.

When you introduce another superpower into the mix (Such as Russia) no matter how allied you may be at one point in time ("Let's kill Hitler") you will find yourself at odds over the differences you DO have.

[Priestiality]

First off, America and the United States are used interchangeably in layman's terms.

Secondly, all of those problems can be traced to the Founding. The former two are the progeny of the philosophical tradition that was begun with the creation of the American Republic, the latter is simply the government attempting to deal with the limitations placed on it at the founding (which is NOT a comment on whether or not I support said abrogations).

Tackling them in reverse order: The limitations were put there to prevent the people from losing power over the government. The Constitution was implemented to protect the citizens from any form of tyranny. As for World Policing, prior to the Cold War the US did not enter a single conflict on foreign soil besides World War 1 that wasn't directly provoked. Prior to WW2, the end of which saw the beginning of the Cold War, the US maintained minimal military presence outside US territory. In fact, historically, the US is considered an isolationist nation for this very reason. Same with Foreign Aid. Prior to World War 1 the only "foreign aid" came in the form of scholarships for foreign students via missionary programs in Africa. After World War 1 the US contributed a small (by today's standards) amount toward rebuilding Belgium, and began sending small amounts of food to European nations. During World War 2, the US began supplying foreign aid as we know it today to allied nations in Europe due to any other form of US intervention being wildly unpopular with the public. Literally up until the DAY before the Pearl Harbor attack something like 83% of the US population opposed US involvement in WW2. Ever since then, the US has been funneling money into nations for various reasons, be it they weren't commies during the Cold War, or Russia was trying to invade (this is how the US helped found Al-Qaeda).

[Deleted]

The UK stands to gain a lot from investing more energy in the EU. Outside it, it will be reduced to a junior partner of the United States.

As sad as it is, the British Empire is no longer the power it once was. She needs allies with which to work in the modern world, and the EU offers the Alliance with the most input.

Problem with the EU though is if we invest more money in it, we easily stand to get nothing in return simply because France and Germany control a majority of the say, so considering the long standing rivalry, we can easily, despite being one of the larger economies in europe, be given as little say as greece in the multicountry politics.

As for the Commonwealth, well, it has ensured we have stable trading lines to both Canada and Australia, as well as leading us to good standing with the Chinese and Japanese Economies thereof.

We're actually not a large trading partner with the US, we're simply often in joint military activities.

[Deleted]

As said, the states that joined did so voluntarily. You cannot have a stable political union if people are permitted to go back and forward willy-nilly; hence why secession is illegal in the United States.

My bad, I was thinking more about countries outside the euro that want to keep the trading benefits, but I assume the trading benefits would still be there.

Because frankly, Sweden in a European Federation seems more unlikely to me than Sweden in a Nordic Federation. Yes, I'm biased obviously.

[larrakeyah]

UK don't even really enjoy the EU as is, we have better trading licenses through the commonwealth.

Not only trading licenses but culture. An Englishman has more in common with a Canadian or Australian than with a Frenchman. The Commonwealth is the natural place for the UK, and is vastly richer in natural resources. The UK is going to leave the EU and maintain the trade agreements with its members. Sooner or later.

[Deleted]

Not only trading licenses but culture. An Englishman has more in common with a Canadian or Australian than with a Frenchman. The Commonwealth is the natural place for the UK, and is vastly richer in natural resources. The UK is going to leave the EU and maintain the trade agreements with its members. Sooner or later.

One can hope.

[Deleted]

Not only trading licenses but culture. An Englishman has more in common with a Canadian or Australian than with a Frenchman. The Commonwealth is the natural place for the UK, and is vastly richer in natural resources. The UK is going to leave the EU and maintain the trade agreements with its members. Sooner or later.

Reminds me of the hilarious action when Norway fishers were caught overfishing Canadian fishing areas, so EVERY Fisherman in Canada, the UK and even fucking Australia started flying Canadian flags and those in the North sea muscles the Norway fishers back to their own waters.

Would be hilarious to see America dip their economy low and ask to be part of the Commonwealth, All hail the Anglosphere would be fun to say the least.

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 09:25 PM ----------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus

"A moist powder tobacco product originating from a variant of dry snuff in the early 19th century in Sweden. It is consumed by placing it under the lip for extended periods of time."

Absolutely disgusting to me, more so than smoking.

Sounds smart for banning it, that stuff would rot your gums off!

[Deleted]

I'm no futurist... but if I had to predict a future for the EU it would be America 2.0 with Germany as your New England (Ruling bloc and economic center) and France as your California (Secondary economic powerhouse that finds itself at odds with the former).

It'll be the Holy Roman Empire all over again, or something.

[Deleted]

One can hope.

I'd love for Citizenship laws to apply for the Commonwealth, I'd love to move to Canada without an added layer of paperwork in applying for another citizenship.

[Deleted]

Sounds smart for banning it, that stuff would rot your gums off!

Just like everything else that's unhealthy, it's part of Swedish culture. It's also waaaay less dangerous than cigarettes and alcohol.

[Deleted]

It'll be the Holy Roman Empire all over again, or something.

Sad thing is, I see no future for any country other than France and Germany in a super EU.

I know the more traditionalist in me thinks it's like giving Europe over to Napoleon and the kaiser all over again!

[Deleted]

I'm from Romania, patriotism is ok but it sucks when you put it against other people. That said, my country sucks so I don't really support it, plus the EU looks much better and hope it has success as it has brought some good things. Even if once in a blue moon they bring some stupid thing that annoys everyone.

[Deleted]

Just like everything else that's unhealthy, it's part of Swedish culture. It's also waaaay less dangerous than cigarettes and alcohol.

I dunno, gum tobacco drastically increases mouth cancer and mouth diseases, moreso even than smoking. But then again, banning anything is too harsh, just slap a thousand warning symbols on it and it would be fine in my book.

[larrakeyah]

Reminds me of the hilarious action when Norway fishers were caught overfishing Canadian fishing areas, so EVERY Fisherman in Canada, the UK and even fucking Australia started flying Canadian flags and those in the North sea muscles the Norway fishers back to their own waters.

Would be hilarious to see America dip their economy low and ask to be part of the Commonwealth, All hail the Anglosphere would be fun to say the least.

It would be more hilarious if Ireland joins, and half of my family are Irish republicans so thats saying something :P , a lot of Canadians and Australians are of Irish descent.

Not to mention the number of British in Australia, easily 20% of the people down under are brits. A stronger Commonwealth makes sense.

[Deleted]

Sad thing is, I see no future for any country other than France and Germany in a super EU.

I know the more traditionalist in me thinks it's like giving Europe over to Napoleon and the kaiser all over again!

A completely united EU is one where France and Germany no longer exist. They're merely regions. Like... California and Florida in a way to compare it to US.
Of course that until a completely united EU there's some way because some nations say "I am a nation and I will not give of my own sovereignty to a super-national organization that is elected democratically by my people and the people of other nations with which I have a close bond"

[Deleted]

It would be more hilarious if Ireland joins, and half of my family are Irish republicans so thats saying something :P , a lot of Canadians and Australians are of Irish descent.

Not to mention the number of British in Australia, easily 20% of the people down under are brits. A stronger Commonwealth makes sense.

I do forsee a strengthening Commonwealth now that the EU seems like a less nice Alternative for trade. Though we must agree.


Less purple money, shit looks really really fruity.

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 09:34 PM ----------

A completely united EU is one where France and Germany no longer exist. They're merely regions. Like... California and Florida in a way to compare it to US.
Of course that until a completely united EU there's some way because some nations say "I am a nation and I will not give of my own sovereignty to a super-national organization that is elected democratically by my people and the people of other nations with which I have a close bond"

The Problem with that is, the nations of the EU are not close, Only a hundred years ago were we anything FROM Close.

The only thing that has gathered us this close is Trade, as we all love to do it and all of us have long standing histories of trade we can agree upon. But I know for a fact I would dislike a German Law over where I live, simply because... I am not German.

[Cybran]

A completely united EU is one where France and Germany no longer exist. They're merely regions. Like... California and Florida in a way to compare it to US.

Fuck that. This is why the EU will never succede.

Of course that until a completely united EU there's some way because some nations say "I am a nation and I will not give of my own sovereignty to a super-national organization that is elected democratically by my people and the people of other nations with which I have a close bond"

The motto of the EU is "United in Diversity". The problem is they are already trying to melt us away, by enabling young people to work in wealthier countries for less then locals and discrediting the culture of smaller countries.

[Deleted]

The only thing that has gathered us this close is Trade, as we all love to do it and all of us have long standing histories of trade we can agree upon. But I know for a fact I would dislike a German Law over where I live, simply because... I am not German.

Agreed. I mean, I think countries like Belgium and Austria would work better because they're both fairly close to both countries in terms of culture, at least from my perspective. Then we have the Nordic countries, England, most of eastern and southern Europe, it just doesn't seem that French-German influence would go over too well with the mass of these countries.

[Deleted]

The Problem with that is, the nations of the EU are not close, Only a hundred years ago were we anything FROM Close.

The only thing that has gathered us this close is Trade, as we all love to do it and all of us have long standing histories of trade we can agree upon. But I know for a fact I would dislike a German Law over where I live, simply because... I am not German.

Yes, 70 years ago we had a world war. And it showed nations that we can't continue like this. Look at the nations who hated eachother most then, France and Germany, today best buddies (except when talking about agriculture where they never agree).

The thing is the people of today are more intertwined then ever. Due to internet, mobile phones, free movement of people in the EU and such, nations of the EU have become closer... through their people and the contact their people have with others.

And about laws, in general when the EU proposes a law most of the countries agree on it, I actually think on important one one single country can have a veto. This was the case some years ago (can't remember exact year) when France wasn't happy with what everyone agreed on agriculture, so refused to vote the law until they left them have more funds for their agriculture.
That's the whole deal. You won't have a German law unless said law fits the UK. Because otherwise the UK won't agree with it and will veto it and won't give in until it's changed to suit them too.

Laws in the EU are like coats. One law, one coat. But this coat has to fit both the german, and the french, and the romanian, and the english. If it doesn't it's changed until it does and everyone agrees on it.

[Arlon]

Im patriotic in a sense that i bitch about corruption and retardet policies of the country i live in. Too bad that for many people patriotism means not saying anything negative about his own country, even when the nation is clearly doing stupid things against its own people.