Patriotism and the Nation-State

[Deleted]

What..?
No; the Roman Empire failed because it was poisoning itself with lead, the general populace was rotting away, child mortality rates were incredibly high, there was no sanitation other than that for the wealthy, people got so much work that they couldn't even do their own cooking, let alone child rearing, and enemies were coming in from the East and the North, repeatedly sacking the heart of the empire.
Rome fell because of its arrogance, superstitions and stupidity. Not because of cultural 'diluting.'

They relied on immigrants to bolster their army too much as well. The Roman empire was too divided in the end to stand on its own (not just for that reason but due to power hunger as well which shattered its unity).

Rome was built on slaves, and Rome trained its enemies by relying on foreigners.



---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 04:52 PM ----------

I think few flee from their culture, I think they flee from either war that ravages their land, or the politics which in turn is influenced by the culture.

As long as they can adapt their culture to fit ours, I have no problem with it. Otherwise it's basically an invasion but without firing a shot.

[Letmesleep]

Could your poll options be any more biased?

I'm a patriotic American. I believe in the ideals of social responsibility, regard for your neighbors, justice, freedom, and a government intended to work for it's people.

I am not "right-minded." I am "reason minded." Smaller government will almost always be more effective government. Focused, forward-thinking, and largely tangential to our day to day lives.

I also believe strongly that in todays' world, the idea of an armed citizenry serving as our primary line of defense is absurd. We need ICBMs and F15s, and those things do not belong in private hands.

I also believe, in the age of the nuclear family, people do need outside assistance from time-to-time, so support sane, limited welfare. (Note, that is not even close to what we have now.)

I believe that, good health being necessary to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that affordable healthcare should be provided to all citizens.

I'm pretty much with you on all of this.

I love America but I also recognize we also have some goofy, broken things going on around here. We're not what we could or should be yet, but that doesn't mean I don't love my home.

[Deleted]

As long as they can adapt their culture to fit ours, I have no problem with it. Otherwise it's basically an invasion but without firing a shot.

What is your definition of fit? If someone wants sharia in Sweden, let them think that. If they want to start a movement, let them. It's their freedom to do what they want in Sweden, and it's not like any huge part of the immigrants support them, quite the opposite.

[Deleted]

Don't really know how to answer this poll. I support my Country because it's my home. I believe that for all it's shitty qualities, overall the UK is a good place to live and I'm thankful to have been born here. But I also believe that the EU is a good thing. Yes it's up shit's creek without a paddle at the moment, but if we isolate ourselves then the UK will become a tiny blip on the map and I truly believe we'd be worse off for it in the long run. So I'd vote - I'm European and I support my country and support the EU.

[Deleted]

What is your definition of fit? If someone wants sharia in Sweden, let them think that. If they want to start a movement, let them. It's their freedom to do what they want in Sweden, and it's not like any huge part of the immigrants support them, quite the opposite.

Fit as in obey the law. Obviously Sharia law isn't compatible with ours. They'd have to take over the country to make that the law.

[Phokas]

The Founding Father's made it pretty clear that it is patriotic to oppose your government.

[Roose]

God damn Swedes. Grampa knows whats up.

I have so many Simpsons clips that I want to play but can't because Fox is the original media nazi.

This thread should be hijacked into a Simpsons thread. That would be infinitely better.

OT: what a horrible poll.

[Fitzgerald77]

I support Canada AND the USA. How you like them apples?

[Deleted]

How is this stupid thread still up?

[Deleted]

How is this stupid thread still up?

Still 6 pages left 'til page 20, so don't there's still hope.

[Wildtree]

Nice I screwed up my vote.. Selective reading trap...
Well, I correct it here then.. I'm European and I support my country and/or SUPPORT the EU.
That option is totally missing.
I also support the US patriotism. Although, I admit, it gets at times a tad annoying. Sometimes a little less is more...
After 15 years, I got more used to it, yet still sometimes it's just too much, too over-dramatized.
It's not a bash, it's a feedback of someone living amongst Americans.
Then again, during World Cup, European Championship, etc.. my neighbors are used to me raising the German Flag outside.. lol

[Nakura Chambers]

Government hating is fashionable in the US, unfortunately.

And despite that, the re-election rate for representatives is around 90% and above 60% for Senators.

I heard a possible explanation for that lately. People tend to think that their representative is "good" but that Congress as a whole is "bad."

[Deleted]

I've never been one for nationalist sentiment. I have very little national pride beyond thinking English Summers are particularly beautiful (probably because they're so damn fleeting!), holding a huge appreciation for the NHS (hoping it lasts) and appreciation for the abundance of brilliant artists and thinkers who have come from this little lump of turf in the North Sea and respect for the people who defended that turf against Fascism in the 30s and 40s and those who today help people fighting oppression overseas.

I'm an internationalist (one world, one unified human race etc) before anything else, that includes before being pro-EU too. I am sceptical of any notion that would erode away any method to appeal unjust lawful actions or violations of rights. That's why I think a unified Europe is good, though handling monetary unification has been terrible, but in no way should individual EU nations dissolve and/or lose their sovereignty. Rights for EU citizens (and hopefully someday for the whole world) should be universal, but I would much rather have a national court to appeal to as well as an international one, rather than just one unified judicial body. I think it's great that, if someone feels they have been judged unfairly in their native state, they are able to appeal it to the EU courts, but the trial 'at home' should never be taken away either. The more options concerning a person's rights, the better!

[Grizzly Willy]

I heard a possible explanation for that lately. People tend to think that their representative is "good" but that Congress as a whole is "bad."

Man, that's an ironic sig if I've ever seen one.

[DeltrusDisc]

Your poll options are too black and white. There's a sliding scale of support, and I fall more on the side of not supporting us going around everywhere and policing the globe. Hence, I chose "oppose." That's not to say I hate America, I like it here. I just don't like our foreign policy.

Yeah, I'm personally having trouble choosing any option, because I support America, but don't have blind patriotism. I see many issues with America, both fundamentally and some of the newer routes it is going. Personally though, I have patriotism for other countries, mostly ones I have heritage with and have friends living where I'd love to attempt living (i.e. Norway).

[Dillon]

Could your poll options be any more biased?

I'm a patriotic American. I believe in the ideals of social responsibility, regard for your neighbors, justice, freedom, and a government intended to work for it's people.

I am not "right-minded." I am "reason minded." Smaller government will almost always be more effective government. Focused, forward-thinking, and largely tangential to our day to day lives.

I also believe strongly that in todays' world, the idea of an armed citizenry serving as our primary line of defense is absurd. We need ICBMs and F15s, and those things do not belong in private hands.

I also believe, in the age of the nuclear family, people do need outside assistance from time-to-time, so support sane, limited welfare. (Note, that is not even close to what we have now.)

I believe that, good health being necessary to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that affordable healthcare should be provided to all citizens.

As you see, my ideals do not line up 100% with yours, but I still feel I am a patriot. That does not mean I am blind to the fact that the original framework provided by the founders has seen both necessary and unnecessary additions since the founding, since the founders were incapable of envisioning many of the changes that predicated those changes.

I'm not "un-American" for believing that the government cannot remain dogmatically wedded to 230 year old ideals.

I don't think I've read anything on these forums with which I've agreed more.

As for 230 year old ideals, to me that depends on the idea. For instance, the first ten amendments I find to be rather timeless. Perfect, no, because everything can be improved with enough foresight, but I'm fairly firm in the idea that they (the ten amendments) should remain largely untouched while this country remains.

[Wikiy]

As for 230 year old ideals, to me that depends on the idea. For instance, the first ten amendments I find to be rather timeless. Perfect, no, because everything can be improved with enough foresight, but I'm fairly firm in the idea that they (the ten amendments) should remain largely untouched while this country remains.

Well if you yourself admit they're not perfect then why say you believe they should remain untouched (and you're even speaking in advance without actually knowing what will happen in the future and what kind of conditions will exist).

[Deleted]

I'm not particularly patriotic, I don't feel any particular love for my country at all, the only time I even become remotely patriotic is during sport. I don't see why supporting the EU goes hand in hand with opposing your country either, or vice versa. Although I do oppose my current government's obvious dislike for the EU. Getting rid of the royals would make me like my country more, I'm suspicious of anyone who lives here who is happy to be a subject and doesn't want to become a citizen.

Personally, I feel you have to be pretty stupid to be patriotic about what country you come from, you were born there by chance, and it's more than likely that you have done or contributed nothing of note to the things that you think make your country great.

[Grizzly Willy]

Well if you yourself admit they're not perfect then why say you believe they should remain untouched (and you're even speaking in advance without actually knowing what will happen in the future and what kind of conditions will exist).

You missed the word "largely" in there. That still allows for some change.