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  1. #1

    Why NOT give 25 Man Raiding Higher ilvl Loot?

    This question comes from me not understanding why people would be opposed to such a change.

    Why should Blizzard NOT give higher item level loot in 25 player raids?

    I mean, if they justified the higher item level loot by increasing the difficulty slightly in 25, and also with the logistical problems involved in creating 25 player guilds, why would this be a bad thing?

    Lets create an example to help me illustrate my point:

    If 10 man raiding is kept a challenge, and several guilds like the 10 man style, why would it matter if better gear is in 25 man, especially if it is a little more difficult to obtain? You would still progress through the raiding environment with your guild on your own schedule. You would eventually get to 10 man heroic raiding, and once you beat all the encounters in 10 man heroic raiding, you are done. Your guild is the most progressed in the game. You have essentially completed the game completely. (i currently raid in a 10 player environment very casually, as I am not hardcore anymore like i used to be)

    So i ask again, why NOT give higher ilvl loot to 25 player raids?

    Caution: Please do not make this into a 10 vs 25 man debate because it could be locked if you do so.
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  2. #2
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Caution: Please do not make this into a 10 vs 25 man debate because it could be locked if you do so.
    This request is at odds with the nature of your question, since by definition the reason why 25 mans don't have higher level loot has to do with the competition of 10 man raiding.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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  3. #3
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
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    Because it would kill many 10man guilds.

    Guilds dieing = people frustrated = people quitting = bad thing for a game.

    Pandoras 10man Box has been opened in Cata. It cannot be closed anymore.

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  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post

    So i ask again, why NOT give higher ilvl loot to 25 player raids?
    Because people would feel forced to raid 25-man. (I'd fully support giving a 25-man raid LEADER higher ilvl loot though.)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Because it would kill many 10man guilds.

    Guilds dieing = people frustrated = people quitting = bad thing for a game.

    Pandoras 10man Box has been opened in Cata. It cannot be closed anymore.
    Respectfully, how would it "kill" 10 man guilds? People who like 10 man style of raiding would continue to do so. It would also be enough incentive to give those teetering on going to 25 man to do so, and do the extra work to organize that type of raid environment.
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  6. #6
    Because forcing people into 25-man raids isn't a solution to the current problem they have with 10 and 25-mans.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Seriss View Post
    Because people would feel forced to raid 25-man. (I'd fully support giving a 25-man raid LEADER higher ilvl loot though.)
    You see, thats where I disagree. People would't feel forced as nothing is forcing them. The progression path is the same. They complete normal mode, then they vie for heroic mode just like it is now.

    As i said before, the increased difficulty of 25 man would be there, and they would have to realize that it would harder for their guild to get into that type of raid environment without the increased effort to organize and prepare their members for it.
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  8. #8
    I honestly have no clue why they can't have the armour already upgraded by 1/2 points on 25 man versions. It seems by FAR the most obvious and easy answer to the solution and GCs arguments why they're NOT doing that seem very couter to all their other arguments for everything at the moment.

    All it would do is give 25 man raids a bit faster way to gear up to max BiS gear. 10 man will get there too, just a bit slower, so there's incentive but by no means not enough to hurt 10 man raiding.

  9. #9
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    I honestly have no clue why they can't have the armour already upgraded by 1/2 points on 25 man versions. It seems by FAR the most obvious and easy answer to the solution and GCs arguments why they're NOT doing that seem very couter to all their other arguments for everything at the moment.
    Because people would still feel beholden to raid 25 mans. Owing to how expensive just 1 level of upgrade is in terms of Valor Points.

    25 man raiding has been made obsolete with 10 mans, sorry to say.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    I honestly have no clue why they can't have the armour already upgraded by 1/2 points on 25 man versions. It seems by FAR the most obvious and easy answer to the solution and GCs arguments why they're NOT doing that seem very couter to all their other arguments for everything at the moment.
    Plus people have some made up sentiment that 10 man raids would feel "forced" to convert to 25 man. I dont see how anyone would be forced to do anything like that if the progression path remained the same as it is now.
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  11. #11
    The simplest way I can think to explain the "you can't go back without going back all the way" issue here is this:

    A group of twelve regulars want to raid. They've geared up through normal and are progressing on their first heroic boss. Two of them are going to have to sit out because they're no where near a twenty-five man run. Four of the DPS were present for 10m progression and now have normal mode BiS gear, while two others were in 25m pugs for a few week and are now in higher ilvl 25m normal BiS gear. Guess who gets a nearly guaranteed spot in the 10m raid?

    Guess how quickly this spirals to "if I don't want to risk getting seated one day, I better go do 25m pugs and spend twice as many hours a week raiding compared to these people who just showed up."

    This is assuming the 10m/25m shared lockout is still in effect.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    You see, thats where I disagree. People would't feel forced as nothing is forcing them. The progression path is the same. They complete normal mode, then they vie for heroic mode just like it is now.
    That's where I disagree. If anything the people will feel forced to do 25-man raids. Even though what you said about 10-man guilds still having fun dispite the lower loot levels etc. makes sense, this isn't how it works in practice. The moment they make 25-man raids drop better gear 10-man guilds will say it is unfair and complain untill the end of time about it.

    As long as there is better loot to obtain somewhere people will feel forced to do what they have to do to get it.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Respectfully, how would it "kill" 10 man guilds? People who like 10 man style of raiding would continue to do so. It would also be enough incentive to give those teetering on going to 25 man to do so, and do the extra work to organize that type of raid environment.
    People who like 25 man raiding don't need an incentive to raid 25 man. If nobody likes 25 man raiding maybe it should die?

  14. #14
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Plus people have some made up sentiment that 10 man raids would feel "forced" to convert to 25 man. I dont see how anyone would be forced to do anything like that if the progression path remained the same as it is now.
    Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't the case. Before the shared lockout, it was quite frequent for 10 man guilds to do 25s if only for loot to pad progression.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  15. #15
    I understand the desire to do 25 man raiding. I liked 25 man myself. The issue you run into is that 25 may be nice for large guilds/servers, but not every server is like that. My server has ZERO 25 man guilds. We just can't do it. There aren't enough people. In fact we're having trouble in my guild filling our 10 man with consistent, decent players. What's worse is we're considered a medium pop server.

    That creates a problem when adding incentive to do 25s. Naturally you'll want the best gear you can get, so you'll want to do 25s. How can you do that when no guild on the server can manage to maintain a steady 25 man that can actually down content?

  16. #16
    Logistics is not a valid reason to give out better loot. Maybe more loot, or more VP and gold. If you want a higher level of loot for 25m then they would need to rais the difficulty in relationship to the ilvl increase. And honestly why does it matter that it doesn't drop higher gear right now?

  17. #17
    Moderator Rivelle's Avatar
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    Very simply, because this isn't WotLK anymore.

    Even before they added a shared lockout to 10 and 25 man raids, people felt like they needed to run both every week in order to maximize their gear. With the shared lockout in place, if they left 25 man gear at a higher ilvl than 10 man, trust in the fact that people (particularly high end progression raiders) would feel like they needed to run 25 man in order to maximize their gear. If the 25 man gear was higher ilvl, they'd also be right about that.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    This question comes from me not understanding why people would be opposed to such a change.

    Why should Blizzard NOT give higher item level loot in 25 player raids?

    I mean, if they justified the higher item level loot by increasing the difficulty slightly in 25, and also with the logistical problems involved in creating 25 player guilds, why would this be a bad thing?

    Lets create an example to help me illustrate my point:

    If 10 man raiding is kept a challenge, and several guilds like the 10 man style, why would it matter if better gear is in 25 man, especially if it is a little more difficult to obtain? You would still progress through the raiding environment with your guild on your own schedule. You would eventually get to 10 man heroic raiding, and once you beat all the encounters in 10 man heroic raiding, you are done. Your guild is the most progressed in the game. You have essentially completed the game completely. (i currently raid in a 10 player environment very casually, as I am not hardcore anymore like i used to be)

    So i ask again, why NOT give higher ilvl loot to 25 player raids?

    Caution: Please do not make this into a 10 vs 25 man debate because it could be locked if you do so.
    Simple and true answer, It would permanently kill thousands upon thousands of ten man guilds and drive away subs

  19. #19
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhamer View Post
    Logistics is not a valid reason to give out better loot. Maybe more loot, or more VP and gold. If you want a higher level of loot for 25m then they would need to rais the difficulty in relationship to the ilvl increase. And honestly why does it matter that it doesn't drop higher gear right now?
    Because it is apparent that the reason for doing 25s was not because people enjoyed doing 25s.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  20. #20
    If 25s drop the best possible gear in the game, then 25s become absolutely required for any progression oriented raider. Even in the minds of those not so serious about progression, it becomes almost mandatory, as the more powerful gear will help with progression. It is the same reason people said that dailies/valor gear were "forced" upon them. Any power advantage, if significant enough, will quickly become "required" by the community, even if it is not strictly required by the game.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
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