Thread: <3 Ghostcrawler

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  1. #181
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korru View Post
    GC is more of a PR scapegoat than a developer don't you agree?
    He's certainly better at the former...
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    They don't care about our majority arguments. Why? We don't have the statistics or collective feedback from 10 million people. They do. If they say that this or that is best for the majority, it's because they have the statistics to prove it. And they don't need to justify themselves to anyone but themselves. It's not a democracy, it's a company that's out to make money.
    The majority of people also hated black people and treated them as second class citizens. The majority isn't always right. Personally, Ghostcrawler is a short sighted dumbass and should have been fired after Cata's epic failure. The current iteration of MOP is downright horrendous.

  3. #183
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    My respect for this man grows every day.
    And mine shrinks.

    Twice he's made proposals to change L90 Mage talents, and both times they didn't make it into PTR but DID make it into the notes. He also continues to say that the L90 talents are an issue, but then goes and says "Mage mechanics are fine". I can't respect a hypocrite, a liar, and someone who just doesn't give a fuck :\

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    And mine shrinks.

    Twice he's made proposals to change L90 Mage talents, and both times they didn't make it into PTR but DID make it into the notes. He also continues to say that the L90 talents are an issue, but then goes and says "Mage mechanics are fine". I can't respect a hypocrite, a liar, and someone who just doesn't give a fuck :\
    This guy mained a mage throughout WOTLK and most of cata. The class was OP as hell for the longest time. If anyone has "respect" for this guy they are completely clueless

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    And in either case the majority argument wins. Very rarely do people on forums come out and simple say I WANT THIS AND THE MAJORITY AGREES. What they usually say is that my friends don't like somethign, I don't like it and lots of people on the forum don't like it. That may not be a majority but it does show a trend, a significant enough trend that you can make a case a sizeable chunk don't like whatever it is that their currently bitching about. That is more or less what the developers do anyway. They just call it "Overwhelming feedback" or some other name.

    The simple fact is that Ghostcrawler can't say they aren't interested in majority arguments when they clearly are and they use them all the time themselves. It makes them look like hypocrits and it's disigenous in the extreme. They are of course interested in majority arguments because if the majority doesn't like a system they implement they will move to correct or change it.
    Have to disagree there. You may not see "I want this and the majority agrees" but you almost hardly ever see "My friends and I, and lots of people from the forum." What he was referring to is "Everyone is sick of warrior mobility, it's clearly in need of a nerf." Well, not *everyone* is sick of it. Or "You are pidgeon-holing us and we feel that..." He's simply saying to refrain from terms like "the vast majority of..." "EVERYONE agrees..." "we ALL said this in Beta..." "Unanimous outcry" etc. etc.

    He's just asking us to formulate our feedback intelligently and not emotionally.

    "GC, everyone is tired of Frost Mage control and burst. It's a hard counter to everything. We all told you in Beta that Shatter combos were OP but you've just ignored us and let Frost be OP for an entire expac."

    ^ Meaningless feedback.

    "GC, I was wondering if you could take the time to address some of my concerns with Frost Mages. I PvP actively on 4 different toons, and in NONE of my arena teams are we able to handle frost mages. I saw some forum feedback in Beta about their burst being too high - do you agree or disagree? Any expected changes we can look forward to, or can I expect the class to ride until next expac?"

    ^ Essentially the same feedback, just more likely to be payed attention to and not ignored / downvoted into oblivion.

    All this talk of absolute statements, hypocrisy, and majority arguments are making my head hurt.

    Take a deep breath, it's going to be okay, I promise.

    Edit: I like the guy just fine, but I certainly don't praise him or hang on his every word. I don't agree with all of his design decisions, but I also understand and accept that HE's the dev, and I'm the player, and that's not likely to change. Yes, he and dev team make a lot of mistakes, but that doesn't make him an asshole, it makes him human.
    Last edited by Alteena; 2013-01-06 at 10:01 PM.

  6. #186
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    The majority of people also hated black people and treated them as second class citizens. The majority isn't always right. Personally, Ghostcrawler is a short sighted dumbass and should have been fired after Cata's epic failure. The current iteration of MOP is downright horrendous.
    If you don't like it, turn away and do something you enjoy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I only saw a few minutes of it but it looked slicker than a lubed up olympic swimmer fleeing from a shark.

  7. #187
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
    No. recent events and the decline of over all sales do to the neglect and bad attitudes towards the player base really has come full circle as of this last year, and whether they will fire GC over it is a call they make, and it might be a symptom of the over all problem that cost them in the end.
    Wait, what?
    This is the FOURTH time you claimed that decline of sales is due to bad attitude towards players without providing any proof!
    Can you stop doing that? It's getting freaking annoying.
    There is no "bad attitude" towards players, it's against trolls and those trolls deserve it.

    And players pay his bosses so that they can in turn pay him.
    And it the boss thinks that this will get more players to pay him, than he allows devs to do what they are doing.

    No i referenced the over all attitude, you asserted that i just meant specifically and only GC, and I provided 2 links to pretty popular gaming review and technology sites. I am not going to literally do all the work because you refuse to do that yourself.
    And that site had 4 reasons why subs might be dropping, none of them related to a bad attitude towards players.

    No its a basic element for debate and making an arguement which you have failed to do on both counts.
    No, it's not.
    Maybe in elementary school, but in the grown-up world that's not an argument.

    The sucess you are suggesting, has nothing to do with privilage of the company, it comes from the customers and the over all population to endure or stick through it, which in about a month if we find those 10 million subs drop to about 9 million or more again. I guessing soon nobody will have a GC to complain about along with a few others.
    Yes, dodge the arguments! Really mature of you.
    Your links have ZERO relevance to this topic, better luck next time.

  8. #188
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    And mine shrinks.

    Twice he's made proposals to change L90 Mage talents, and both times they didn't make it into PTR but DID make it into the notes. He also continues to say that the L90 talents are an issue, but then goes and says "Mage mechanics are fine". I can't respect a hypocrite, a liar, and someone who just doesn't give a fuck :\
    And the biggest mistake anyone outside of the dev team can make is to assume that the world (of Warcraft) is somehow a static element. It is not. Things change. What was right yesterday may not be right today. Neither you nor I have the right to demand anything from them. What we do have the right to is to decide whether we want to pay or not. I don't know about you, but I for one would not hand out my money to people I don't trust. So it really comes down to the one thing. Do you trust Blizzard with your money, or do you not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I only saw a few minutes of it but it looked slicker than a lubed up olympic swimmer fleeing from a shark.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmatum View Post
    I wouldn't want GC's job. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
    Haha, I actually sent GC a tweet about this. I'm happy he didn't respond and chose to respond to tweets with more substance.

    If we take current number of WoW subs to be between 8-10 million, then you have to understand the forums, twitter, and the people you communicate with in game are truly a small minority. You also have to trust that GC and Blizzard have access to much more data and feedback than we do. We see numbers on WoWProgress. They can directly access participation numbers from game logs.

    Just because I feel something is wrong or broken doesn't mean it is. And even if it is, it doesn't mean my change would be appropriate.

  10. #190
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Wait, what?
    This is the FOURTH time you claimed that decline of sales is due to bad attitude towards players without providing any proof!
    Can you stop doing that? It's getting freaking annoying.
    There is no "bad attitude" towards players, it's against trolls and those trolls deserve it.

    And it the boss thinks that this will get more players to pay him, than he allows devs to do what they are doing.

    And that site had 4 reasons why subs might be dropping, none of them related to a bad attitude towards players.

    No, it's not.
    Maybe in elementary school, but in the grown-up world that's not an argument.

    Yes, dodge the arguments! Really mature of you.
    Your links have ZERO relevance to this topic, better luck next time.
    While I don't agree that Mr. Street being a D-bag is the reason for 2 million people leaving, I did want to address 2 things. First is that you are stating that everyone put down by Greg and the CM's is a troll. Every single one. Do I even need to go back and find a good batch of blue posts throwing away people with legitimate concerns put forward fairly well or do you just want to take it back now? Secondly, I wouldn't talk to other people about dodging arguments when you quite clearly dodged mine. Did I not have any good random sentences for you to fragment and put together and misquote me on or something?

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    As much as I can appreciate and understand the sentiment, I would not like to see this twitter feed with GC go away. As much as I disagree with him I do enjoy the conversation and I know he appreciates the feedback. It's a good tool for them and I hope he continues to do it.
    tony you know that you and I usually don't agree and have differents pov on a lot of stuff, but when you say these things I just can't hate you <3

  12. #192
    Mechagnome kleinlax21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    Let's put this another way. If 4 million people quit the game tmmrw because they all feel Frost Mages are not balanced in the slightest will it not make the devs rethink what they consider balanced? I think at the very least we have to acknowledge that some MAJORITY FEEDBACK or mass movement within the game has an effect on the developers and their mindsets. Hard dungeons is another excellent example. They were changed because of majority feedback again.
    "Hard dungeons" is a very subjective topic where feedback differed from many players. Some liked the hard heroics, and others disliked them. Players left good feedback for both sides of the issue, and Blizzard looked at their internal numbers and decided it was for the good of the game to make heroics easier. Doubtlessly, there was at least one individual who quit the game because of this change.

    [Continuing the fictitious example]Frost Mage's position in PvP balance, however, isn't as subjective as the difficulty level of heroics. Either Mages are OP, UP, balanced, or somewhere else along that continuum. I don't think any number of players quitting due to Frost Mage balance in PvP would be cause for Blizzard to rethink their state in balance. As well, I am almost certain at least one individual has quit primarily due to Frost's position in PvP balance. I would argue that this individual's feedback overall has no bearing on whether or not Mages are balanced.

    Every day, somebody on the forums says Mages are OP, and everyday somebody says they are UP. The amount of players who side with either argument is irrelevant to the actual position of Frost in PvP.

    Sorry to rag on Mages so much, I just always see people languish for nerfs to Frost and I thought it would be a good example to use where Blizzard repeatedly ignores the "majority feedback" that Frost should be nerfed, arguably to the benefit of PvP balance and the game as a whole.

    Stuff like "my rotation isn't fun" is much more subject to opinionated and non-fact base feedback than something like the poignancy of a spec in PvP play.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 05:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    While I don't agree that Mr. Street being a D-bag is the reason for 2 million people leaving, I did want to address 2 things. First is that you are stating that everyone put down by Greg and the CM's is a troll. Every single one. Do I even need to go back and find a good batch of blue posts throwing away people with legitimate concerns put forward fairly well or do you just want to take it back now? Secondly, I wouldn't talk to other people about dodging arguments when you quite clearly dodged mine. Did I not have any good random sentences for you to fragment and put together and misquote me on or something?
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    Just because I feel something is wrong or broken doesn't mean it is. And even if it is, it doesn't mean my change would be appropriate.
    Just because you leave good feedback doesn't entitle you to seeing the changes enacted that you proposed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Kleinlax21 who is on your 'side' had no problem doing so.He also doesn't need to attack me in literally every sentence he types.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Wait, what?
    This is the FOURTH time you claimed that decline of sales is due to bad attitude towards players without providing any proof!
    Can you stop doing that? It's getting freaking annoying.
    There is no "bad attitude" towards players, it's against trolls and those trolls deserve it.


    And it the boss thinks that this will get more players to pay him, than he allows devs to do what they are doing.


    And that site had 4 reasons why subs might be dropping, none of them related to a bad attitude towards players.


    No, it's not.
    Maybe in elementary school, but in the grown-up world that's not an argument.


    Yes, dodge the arguments! Really mature of you.
    Your links have ZERO relevance to this topic, better luck next time.
    How does being rude to customers have anything but a negative effect?
    To suggest it will get more players to subscrible is ridiculous.

  14. #194
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kleinlax21 View Post
    Just because you leave good feedback doesn't entitle you to seeing the changes enacted that you proposed.
    Perhaps you should go back and read my previous 2 comments and what I was responding to before lumping me in with that statement. Though I would argue that good feedback with a logical basis has no real reason to not be dealt with appropriately. If you would disagree with that statement then the WoW forums users would all be posting with their real names, Transmogrification would never exist, and warriors/hunters could still have the stars align and gcd their targets in pvp without issue. Not to mention many of the other balance changes and content that have been implemented. There are some things though that are picked and chosen seemingly at random or just merely dismissed that really shouldn't have any business being added or ignored, which is where all the intelligent dissatisfaction comes from. (see my previous posts in this thread for some examples)

  15. #195
    Mechagnome kleinlax21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    Perhaps you should go back and read my previous 2 comments and what I was responding to before lumping me in with that statement. Though I would argue that good feedback with a logical basis has no real reason to not be dealt with appropriately. If you would disagree with that statement then the WoW forums users would all be posting with their real names, Transmogrification would never exist, and warriors/hunters could still have the stars align and gcd their targets in pvp without issue. Not to mention many of the other balance changes and content that have been implemented. There are some things though that are picked and chosen seemingly at random or just merely dismissed that really shouldn't have any business being added or ignored, which is where all the intelligent dissatisfaction comes from. (see my previous posts in this thread for some examples)
    I mean, is it not your opinion that some stuff should be added that isnt and other things shouldn't be added that are? Blizzard doesn't have to listen, reply to, acknowledge, or even give credit to your feedback, even if it is the most amazing truth-rooted feedback ever presented to them. I'm sure, at some instance where you gave good feedback that wasn't acted upon, whatever you presented to Blizzard was actually a great fucking idea that would improve the game for 80%+ of the WoW population. I do not doubt this for a second that you have the capacity (and likely a history) of leaving good, quality feedback/suggestions.

    Where you are wrong is that Blizz isn't forced to act on your suggestions merely because you believe they should, regardless of your degree of correctness on the matter.

    I'd argue that, most of the time stuff isn't implemented, it's not because Blizz didn't want to do it.
    See: New player models, the proposed DotA bg, item upgrades in 5.0, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Kleinlax21 who is on your 'side' had no problem doing so.He also doesn't need to attack me in literally every sentence he types.

  16. #196
    While I appreciate him and the job he does....one thing I don't like is how when there's a serious problem with the game....but he manages to find the dumbest, most arrogant tweet about that problem and responds like the person's an imbecile (which they probably are) but then it makes the rest of us who actually have constructive and thought-out ideas a little peeved.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    I can tell you this. The majority of people who plays Horde are 12 year olds. Oddly, Blizzard can show\prove to you something different. Yet ALL my friends have confirmed, the majority of Horde players they know are 12 year olds.
    For you and they to know that, they'd have to play horde, thus, you are either saying you and your friends are all 12 year olds, or proving your statement false in the statement itself.

    The opposite I've also heard in the years (all Alliance are kids) ... so by the two theories, nearly no adults play this game at all, which is false.

    Anecdotal evidence is useless, especially when coming from a skewed originating viewpoint, and based on no real life evidence (I 'think' this person is 12 based on my online interaction with someone who lives no where near me, nor have any proof anything they say has any value or merit (lies)).


    Ghostcrawler is doing a great job, and I hope he doesn't get discouraged. I don't agree with everything he says, nor some of the decisions as a whole Blizzard has made with various aspects of the game, but that doesn't make him an asshole. I respect he is trying to communicate, even though people mostly vent -at- him, and rarely talk with him nor give proper feedback; mostly just 'I'm mad, u suck, fix it or u is da worse eva and I quit!!!1' nerf x it killed my y too easily, and other stuff ... nor do they listen to the reasons (arcane using scorch was unintended use of mechanics, to avoid class design limitations (mana management)).

    But it is all ok, Mad_Murdock is 12 years old playing Horde with his 12 year old friends ... the world can be at peace now

  18. #198
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    I haven't agreed with all the decisions that GC has made, but I fully support and enjoy his Twitter responses.
    Last edited by Zoma; 2013-01-07 at 03:34 AM.

  19. #199
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kleinlax21 View Post
    I mean, is it not your opinion that some stuff should be added that isnt and other things shouldn't be added that are? Blizzard doesn't have to listen, reply to, acknowledge, or even give credit to your feedback, even if it is the most amazing truth-rooted feedback ever presented to them. I'm sure, at some instance where you gave good feedback that wasn't acted upon, whatever you presented to Blizzard was actually a great fucking idea that would improve the game for 80%+ of the WoW population. I do not doubt this for a second that you have the capacity (and likely a history) of leaving good, quality feedback/suggestions.

    Where you are wrong is that Blizz isn't forced to act on your suggestions merely because you believe they should, regardless of your degree of correctness on the matter.

    I'd argue that, most of the time stuff isn't implemented, it's not because Blizz didn't want to do it.
    See: New player models, the proposed DotA bg, item upgrades in 5.0, etc.
    They don't HAVE to implement it, but there are things they have no reason not to change, and some things they have no reason to change but do anyway. While Blizzard does listen to a degree, I feel they could greatly improve by taking some community suggestions more seriously. This isn't only talking about things they put in game, but themselves as a company as well. Do you not agree? RIOT as a company proves that by themselves by having a monthly player base larger than WoW's total subscribers have ever been, and a total player base 3 times larger. The biggest difference between those two companies is how they interact and listen to their respective community. By not listening to intelligent and constructive feedback or suggestions the only thing they are doing is hurting themselves. When I suggested Healing Rain for shaman to them the idea got snatched up like candy and they made certain no signs remained until they were ready to reveal it 6 months later. They pick and choose what they want to take, which is fine. But where they lay the reasoning for the decisions is inconsistent at best, and complete fabrication at worst.

    As for your last sentence, I would disagree whole-heartedly. I believe most of the things they don't want to change/implement is because they don't want to change/implement it. People have wanted a DotA style BG since DotA became popular, do you really think it would take 6+ years to create? Same could easily be said of character models, I remember people starting to ask for better models back when Aion came out. Do you think it takes 3-4 years to make new art? These sort of things are suggestions that they either started and scrapped because they decided they didn't want to do it at that time, or decided to keep as a backup plan because they knew people would still want those things far into the future. Transmog is a prime example of that, especially with how easily it could have been done, but was held back until they knew Cataclysm was going badly and they needed something to keep players happy. Overall I think you are just giving Blizzard too much undeserved credit.

  20. #200
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    While I don't agree that Mr. Street being a D-bag is the reason for 2 million people leaving, I did want to address 2 things. First is that you are stating that everyone put down by Greg and the CM's is a troll. Every single one. Do I even need to go back and find a good batch of blue posts throwing away people with legitimate concerns put forward fairly well or do you just want to take it back now? Secondly, I wouldn't talk to other people about dodging arguments when you quite clearly dodged mine. Did I not have any good random sentences for you to fragment and put together and misquote me on or something?
    You could do that.
    I just read an entire page of Tweets and even most of those trolls get treated fairly.
    If people can't read a little sarcasm without bursting out in tears than it's their problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Attsey View Post
    How does being rude to customers have anything but a negative effect?
    To suggest it will get more players to subscrible is ridiculous.
    No, being rude to trolls can have a good effect.
    It makes normal customers have more respect for you and therefore make them more loyal.
    If it was really a negative effect, someone up would have told him to stop and kiss the ass of everyone who attacked them.

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